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What documentation does FFL need to receive gun from out of state?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bushmaster1313, Feb 22, 2011.

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  1. bushmaster1313

    bushmaster1313 Member

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    If I buy a handgun online and have the non-FFL out of state seller send it to my local FFL, what documentation does the local FFL need from the out-of-state seller to log it into the bound book so he can then transfer it to me?
     
  2. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    By law, the only documentation needed is the name and address of the seller, which could be obtained from the return address label.

    99% of FFLs that receive shipments from private parties will request a copy of a driver's license license or ID card to be enclosed with the gun, as well as a note explaining to whom the gun is sold to.

    Some FFLs will refuse any shipment that does not come from another FFL.

    You absolutely must ask the receiving FFL what they want, or run the risk of them refusing the shipment.
     
  3. docnyt

    docnyt Member

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    +1 NavyLT. Best thing to do is ask your local FFL.
     
  4. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    NavyLT summed it up.

    Another check with your recieving FFL dealer on how they prefer to recieve a shipment. Because they can legally refuse a shipment that does comply with what they want.
     
  5. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    In other words, any that isn't cleared beforehand.

    It'd be kinda late to refuse a shipment after they open it and find out something was missing from their list of demands.



    Please note that not all FFLs act this way (thankfully).
     
  6. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    I've ran into a few FFL dealers that return the shipment if it doesn't contain the info they wanted.
     
  7. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Such behavior is illegal.

    Once a dealer receives a firearm for disposition, they cannot legally return it directly to the sender.
     
  8. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    I've found dealers in NY state to be particularly atrocious here. I had one call me at 7AM to scream that the ffl I sent wasn't to spec. He threatened to send the gun back. I asked how he was going to send a gun to an unlicensed person. I also asked him to produce evidence i was required to send one in the first place. He failed on both counts.
    I won't make sales to NY state anymore as that experience was not unique.
     
  9. bushmaster1313

    bushmaster1313 Member

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    So what is an FFL to do if he received a gun yesterday from an out of state non-FFL with no documentation and a properly documented buyer is in the store today ready to receive the paid-for gun in a legal transfer?

    P.S. I am not an FFL.
     
  10. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Set it aside and contact the closest ATF field office to have someone come get it.
     
  11. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    Use whatever you have available to generate the correct information to the best of your knowledge and go with that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2011
  12. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Just like that, eh? Closed case with no appeals, WOW.

    Some more customer-friendly (and legal) options would be:
    • "Allow the buyer to make arrangements for the sender to provide a positive identification."
    • "Allow the parties involved provide an FFL to ship the gun back to"


    When dealing with an unlicensed individual, the only legally required information can found in the return address. No documents of any kind are legally required. Some dealers require a copy of your drivers license, birth certificate, etc, which is not legally required, but a business decision on their part.
     
  13. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    Yeah. The receiving dealer has a duty to take care of his customer, who has more than likely already paid for the gun. Simply shipping it off to ATF is, imo, not much more than theft.
     
  14. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    When the question was asked I took it to mean that the sender was not willing to provide that information.

    If I get a box with a first initial, last name Smith, a return address of a Mailboxes Etc, and neither the sender nor the buyer can give me what I need to enter that gun properly in my bound book, I don't have much recourse - and the hassle I get from the ATF at my next compliance inspection is not worth the transfer fee.
     
  15. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    I've never had that happen. I'd be surprised if it ever did.
     
  16. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    He requires what ever info he says he requires. It's his business, and his butt on the line with the BATFE. He has to be able to identify, to his satisfaction, the source of the firearm that is being entered into his bound book.

    Personally, I'll settle for a copy of your drivers license, and I do "personal" transfers all the time. I also want to know =what= is coming ahead of time because there are handguns that are illegal in my state (SC), and I'm not allowed to have them on my premises, much less do a transfer.

    If the receiving FFL's "requirements" are too much of a hassle for seller, find another FFL, plenty of them out there. But =all= need to know where the gun came from.
     
  17. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    Personally, if I ended up in that position I'd turn the gun over to SLED (SC State Police) for destruction. That would be after I exhausted all efforts to get a "source" for the gun.

    No way in h### I'm going to loose my license, my $10K bond and/or go to jail for a $20 transfer.

    And no, the "buyer" doesn't get a vote.
     
  18. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    The receiving dealers duty to retain his license and stay out of jail trumps any "duty to his customer".
     
  19. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    Since we've already agreed there is no requirement to verify any information, on what grounds is the dealer going to lose his license, much less go to jail?

    I'll note btw that the head of Cav Arms ran virtually a criminal enterprise, altering serial numbers on full auto weapons, selling to prohibited persons and failing to file proper paperwork, all knowingly. And he has yet to spend one day in jail.
     
  20. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    Actually, A receiving dealer most certianly CAN return a firearm to the sender.

    Same as if YOU send a firearm in for repair, it is returned directly to YOU.



    I just check the return addy if there is nothing in the box, barring that I contact MY customer and have them get the info from the seller.
     
  21. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    Uh, no.
    A firearm may be sent to the manufacturer for repair and returned to the sender. This is like someone who brings one to a gunsmith and can pick it up without doing a 4473.
    But that is an exception for repair. A sale is different and I do not believe a dealer can send a firearm to a non-licensee. Of course if someone can produce statute and reg to the contrary then I am wrong.
     
  22. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    I'd suggest you contact your lawyer for some schoolin' before you return a firearm directly back to an ATF plant.
     
  23. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    You can run YOUR business any way you want to. I'll run MINE the way I want to.

    And Al Capone didn't serve a day in jail either ... until the first day he did. The wheels grind slowly at times ... but they do grind on.
     
  24. Horny Toad

    Horny Toad Member

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    +1

    The FFL I use asks for:

    1. The name of the dealer I purchased from
    2. Their fax # so he can fax his FFL
    3. What type of gun. He wants to know whether or not it's legal in NJ

    Once it comes in, I get a call from him. I go fill out the 4473, pay him his fee and I'm on my way. Nice and simple.
     
  25. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    So the ATF is going to put someone in jail because he doesn't run his business the way you run yours?:confused: I think I'm confused.
     
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