What does your weapon training consist of?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by The Hand Gunner, May 15, 2020.

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  1. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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    I'm sorry but all of the instructors I've talked with, and have looked and evern the gunstore employees have never said that capacity is an issue. I'm perfectly capable of taking a threat down with six or less bullets. Now can we please get this thread back on track. If we want to rehash the same old argument of which is better "a revolver or a semi-auto?" Fine but please do it somewheres else.
     
  2. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Give us the instructors' qualifications. Gun store employees - what are their credentials?
    Now, if you post your plan and comments don't go the way you want, that is not the way this forum works.
     
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  3. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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    Well I personally don't know exactly what everyone is at each gun store I've been to. But I know for a fact some of them are retired police, military, and security so that for me gives there credibility and advice more weight than some random stranger on the internet. Also my parents, brother, aunt, and uncle who are all prior service members of the Army, Navy, Air force, and Marines.
     
  4. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? How did you pose the question?

    Think so? Good for you!

    You raised the issue.

    I hate to put it quite this way, but that does not tell us much about advice you may have received on the subject of statistical distributions.
     
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  5. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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    Look you don't believe me look it up. I personally have never felt under gunned simply because I carry a revolver. A gun is a gun and a bullet is a bullet. It doesn't matter what's firing it, if I'm accurate enough to hit my target then capacity size is a mute point. Life isn't a movie and we aren't cops getting into Hollywood fire fights.
     
  6. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Your "target sheets" from the range cannot tell you, or anyone else, how many rounds you may need to expend while firing very quickly at a charging attacker to effect a physical stop by destroying critical parts that are hidden within the attacker's body.
     
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  7. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

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    That's presupposing your target is only a single. Suppose his demise brings out his six buddies? I carry a 3" 1911 with no reload, but a P32 BUG. I am told by many that I should be carrying a reload, but I have also moved to where I no longer feel the need to carry as strongly as before. Doesn't matter, I still do, as once a Detroiter, always a Detroiter. Or maybe it should be, I left Wayne County, but the bad memories linger. Anyways I carry my EDC because it's what I shoot best. But I'm under no illusions that when faced with a real situation, all my accuracy that I'm so proud of could go right out the window. It happens to the best of them. Heck it happens in training, just because all eyes are on me, what would happen if my life depended on it?
     
  8. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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    That's why I train for accurate shots. No one can know how many shots they're going to need but statistics have proven that if you shoot someone with a big enough, heavy enough bullet them they will go down in less shots. Lets say you have a dinky 22LR & a beefy 45LC. The 45LC can drop someone in three shots or less of your on target. Now even if your on target with the 22LR you'll need way more than three shots because sadly the 222LR is a severely underwhelming self defense round. Yes it's still incredibly deadly in the right circumstances but it's not what I'd carry for SD. Some people do and good for them. To each there own, I know I wouldn't want to get shot shot by either caliber.
     
  9. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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    In any situation it's best to runaway and seeing as I've never heard of anyone having to fight off six attackers I think where all good. Hell I'd want a rifle or a shotgun in that situation more than any pistol.
     
  10. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    This thread makes me want to move to Arizona. I think my next long road trip will be something out that way.

    Ya'll are nuts if you underestimate a guy with a sword, or knife, at CQB distances. Especially with a pistol, that's known to fail at quick stops. Even worse if your hand gets lopped off during the draw. Lol. Crazies in the ME and Europe are still making a mess routinely, with such.

    Op's post mentioned training.
    https://www.tdiohio.com/classes/

    Pistol 1-6
    Carbine 1
    Shotgun.

    Then start competing in USPSA and 3gun. Nothing else will keep your skills perfectly sharp. Pretty sure you can still carry the sword in 3gun. lol.
     
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  11. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    You have now:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/video-mob-of-high-school-students-attacks-man-at-gas-station/

    That could have gone worse. And happens weekly in Memphis. Long arms are hard to conceal, and easy to leverage away. The stealth of a pistol is significant in mobs.

    More:
    https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/28826233/a-better-mid-south-mob-attacks-man-at-gas-station/

    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/philly-mob-beats-man-hammer-wood-slight-cops-article-1.2183202

    This one might qualify for ''play stupid games, win stupid prizes''
    https://www.wistv.com/story/14452811/mob-attacks-man-outside-convenience-store/

    https://fox2now.com/news/vicious-gas-station-beating-caught-on-video/

    Think I'll just get gas in the country, in day light only, from now on.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
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  12. The Hand Gunner

    The Hand Gunner member

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  13. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Knowledgeable people train for a balance of speed and precision. Combat accuracy is all that will be required.

    Think in terms of putting three to six shots into the area of a small pie plate at ten or twelve feet in less than a second.

    What statistics? Fewer than how many shots?

    The scientific handgun wounding and effectiveness data compiled and analyzed at the FBI Training Academy at Quantico prioritizes penetration with a good JHP bullet, and shot placement. Bullet diameter is a distant third. Bullet weigh is not one of the variables.

    Shot placement does not mean marksmanship. It has to do with what internal body parts are struck.

    Those parts are not visible, and they are moving fast, in six degrees of freedom.

    That means that hitting them is largely a matter of luck. Improving one's luck requires firing more shots in the very short time available.

    I strongly recommend that you avail yourself of some good, realistic defensive pistol training.
     
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  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    More on training, again from one of our Sticky threads:

    "Using a defensive firearm effectively is not the same as shooting at a target for accuracy.

    "When we go to the square range, we are planning to shoot, and we know precisely where the target will be. That's not at all like reacting to an unexpected violent criminal attack, which will come as an unplanned and very disturbing occurrence. Shooting a firearm while standing in front of a stationary target at a fixed distance is a good thing to be able to do, but it does not really equip one to use it effectively for self defense. And being able to achieve good "group sizes" on our targets won't help us much in the gravest extreme.

    "One must have the skills to draw quickly while moving, to hit targets at varying distances, with a balance of speed and precision.

    "That speed is a lot higher than most people try at the square range. In a justified defensive use force incident, our attacker is not going to pose for us and act like a target, or stop while we evaluate his condition after we have fired. In the Tueller Drill, we have learned that the average person can close on us at about five meters per second, making it necessary to draw and fire in about a second and a half if he starts at seven meters, making him difficult to hit, and placing him much closer to us than most or targets we see being used in the square range. And from other sources, we learn that, contrary to what we see in screen fiction, we may have to score several good hits in the very short time interval that we have. That requires fast shooting and combat accuracy--a balance of speed and precision--but not the bullseye groups we like for fun.

    "The firearm that one ends up carrying will likely depend upon what they learn about defensive shooting in training. For example, a firearm with too much recoil, or one with a very small grip, will be difficult to use in the training drills.

    "One can, and should, also train in the use of OC, a cane, and hand skills.

    It is important to understand that the use of a cane, walking stick, or other impact weapon can constitute the use of deadly force. If we intend to employ them as less than lethal weapons, it behooves us to know how to do that and to be able to document that we we possessed that knowledge before the fact.

    "We cannot overstate the importance of having at least some realistic defensive training. There are several sources for this kind of training, up to and including FoF training.

    "By training, we mean learning the skills from knowledgeable persons who know how to teach.

    "There are kinds of shooting skills. We start with basic shooting--with firearm safety, grip, trigger pull, use of the sights, and stance.

    "Defensive shooting training encompasses reacting to an unexpected attack from any angle, drawing while moving, shoot/no-shoot exercises, and learning to balance speed and precision in different encounters.

    "Finding qualified instructors is the first challenge. Beware of those who advertise their experience in military combat. Look for endorsements from people such as the authors mentioned at the end of this note."​
     
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  15. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Too late.

    How do you know in advance how many rounds will be required?

    Is that average the median, mean or mode? What is the range and the distribution? Who did the study? Are there more than one and were they published in peer reviewed journals?

    You should just skip all the nonsense and go with that.

    What statistics? Cite your sources.

    Maybe.
     
  16. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Just when I was thinking that we haven't had any new, though-provoking threads on the forum for a while.
     
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  17. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    I mean, y’all are arguing with a guy who has two revolvers as his “SHTF” guns, a Cimarron single action with a snake on the stock, and an Uberti single action. He has only had a chance to shoot the Cimarron but in 32 shots at a human silhouette target he got 30 in the black so he knows he is good. Add in the swords and this guy would give even Gecko45 a run for his money.
     
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  18. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    I was in the Army too. So what?
     
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  19. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    The Internet exists for our amusement. Why not post that you will paint yourself blue with woad, go to the mall in a jock strap, sporting an axe and carrying a blunderbuss? Maybe your instructors told you that was ok. Well, you can but not on THR.

    Closing this one.
     
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