What good can a handgun do against an Army?

[Orange_Magnum]

If dangerous leaders come into power in America they will go down like in Dallas. With the evil head removed the stupid body can not function.

Unfortunately, there are so many small steps taken towards socialism that it's difficult where to draw the line.

 

[roger505]

You ask of what use a handgun against an army?

Let me tell you a story, a story of Mindanao, the Japanese army and Mr. Fertig. In 1941 Wendall Fertig was an engineer, building roads and bridges on Mindanao, when MacArthur had him drafted to build fortifications. When the order to surrender came he walked in to the Jungle with a 45 and 2 mags of ammo. With in a week he had six men, a Thompson[no ammo for it], another 45, and 3 rifles with less than 200 rounds. In May 1943 he had 36,000 men, 19,000 who were fully equipped, and a navy. The Japs were sending a army to reinforce New Guiana, they had to be rerouted to Mindanao. This reduced there force on New Guiana by 50%, and probably saved MacArthur's butt. By the time MacArthur invaded, Fertig had driven two army's into the sea and was working on number three

Mr. Fertig had no military experience or training.
After the war he went back to engineering. In the 50's the army formed the Special Forces, they recalled Mr. Fertig to set up the Fort Brag school and establish the Special Forces.

The answer? A pistol, none. A pistol and a man, every thing.

Remember this.
There are no deadly weapons, just dangerous people.

 

[ctdonath]

Excellent anecdote.

 

[hso]

This one's wandered off topic and started a thread within the original thread.

Closed.

 

[ilbob]

I am always a little nervous when we venture into an area of discussion that even remotely suggests some kind of civil war or armed revolt might be an answer to some problem.

I grant you that the founders considered it a basic human right to do so if the situation they faced with their existing government became intolerable, and they installed the 2A as a means to reduce the potential need for it. The 2A was supposed to reduce the need for standing armed forces, which were seen as destructive of liberty, by making the militia the basic unit of collective defense. For various reasons we have gone away from that model, and now we have massive standing armies (I would include paid police in those numbers), and that has certainly contributed to the reduction in liberty we have experienced.

It was also supposed to insure that if it became necessary (a very nebulous term I will grant) that the people would have the means to deal with a tyranical government.

 

[yokel]

Quote:
Our adversary appears to be doing better in the armament dept. than your typical American gun owner:

They could have the best weapons in the world, if they're poorly trained, they're going to be slaughtered. Alot of the skirmishes in the Iraq theater are high casualties for resistance due to the lack of training.

I was just trying to dispel the silly notion that the insurgency in Iraq is forced to make do with nothing more than what one would typically find at a U.S. gun shop.

Who could deny that heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, man-portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns and missile launchers, recoilless rifles, and small mortars would be more useful in an effort to foil or defeat a standing army than just a handgun?

Naturally, private ownership would have to be accompanied by mandatory training in weapons and tactics as well as their safe storage and transfer.

 

[ilbob]

By the time MacArthur invaded, Fertig had driven two army's into the sea and was working on number three

And as I recall, MacArthur's response to the immeasurable contributions Fertig and his indigenous troops made was to deliberately snub him.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

ilbob,

For the longest time--and the entire time I was in uniformed service--virtually the entire military snubbed their special operations troops. Even the Air Force snubbed their legendary pararescuemen/parajumpers (PJs) even though the only thing standing between a stay in the Hanoi Hilton and freedom was oftentimes a single PJ.

In the Navy, UDT and SEALs were literally persona non grata, and the Army praised their Airborne Rangers, but crapped on their Special Forces (Green Berets) any time they could.

The exception was the Marine Corps, whose attitude has always been "every Marine is an elite soldier." But at times, even the Corps would deal dirt to their recon troops.

Such soldiers, or "operators" are trained to think independently of command in order to survive and succeed. This "independent" thinking goes directly against the mentality and tradition upheld by ring-knocker officers, admirals and generals.

As of late, the value of special operations has been seen and utilized, but the ring-knockers still don't like them very much.

By the time the first one is downed you need to already be downing the next or retreating. That means you need a decisive shot they don't see coming, not numerous rounds in arms and legs.

And you know this because you've done it?

Again, I don't think--no, I KNOW--you don't understand what can often happen on a non-traditional battlefield.

Never discount the value and worthiness of any weapon, let alone a handgun.

A lone handgun against an entire army? That's a ridiculous question.

Handguns against an army? Fair question for those who know, understand and have experience in tactics involving "weapons trade" as we used to call it.

Jeff

 

[roger505]

MacArthur tried to have Fertig court marshaled for not fallowing orders and surrendering. He aided him only when ordered to do so by Roosevelt. The attitude of the regaler army goes back to the stone age and has been held by about every "professional" sense. This can be used by irregulars to there advantage , as every generation of military must learn, often to there regret. Never under estimate the enemy!
A handgun, rifle, tank, is but a tool. The deciding factor is the man wielding it.
Forget this and you will regret it, assuming you survive.

 

[ilbob]

MacArthur tried to have Fertig court marshaled for not fallowing orders and surrendering.

Quite true. Fertig proved MacArthur was wrong about the value of irregular troops, and I suspect that is what really irked Mac. His ego was huge, even for a 4 star general. Mac also was a bit of a bigot about the value of officers who did not come from the traditional channels. Despite the plain fact that most of the finest junior combat leaders did not come out of west point.

It also may have offended him that Fertig did not consider Mac to be his social equal. Mac thought that he was the top of the social order (remember his monstrous ego). There was also the issue of Fertig promoting himself to brigadier general.

 

[ctdonath]

You are NOT going to blend in here because you will not have the support of the population.

You WILL blend in here because you are already part of the population. You only stand out if you stand out.

I'm reminded of the exchange between high-ranking leaders of the German and Swiss militaries in WWII as the former was preparing to invade Switzerland (paraphrased):
"We have 400,000 professional troops ready to roll into your country. What will your paltry 200,000 part-timers do?"
"Shoot twice and go home."
Switzerland was never invaded.

About 1/3rd of our population is armed. 18,000,000+ are deer hunters (suitably equipped). Several million are equipped for CCW. None are distinguishable from the rest of the population.
Raptors and Abrams and Sidewinders, oh my! What, pray tell, will they actually do? especially when their opposition need only "shoot twice and go home"?

 

[roger505]

I once had a long talk with a former German WWll field officer who was instructing at the command school on Ft. Leavenworth. He said that of all the armies he faced he least wanted to face the American. The reason was it was not a professional army but an amateur one. And a talented amateur is the most dangerous and hardest to face in combat.
The same can be of the American people, for they are one and the same.

 

[siglite]

What I find kind of amusing, is the assumption that the handgun is the ONLY weapon of an insurgency. Oh, you can bet that if there were an insurgency in the US, handguns would be used, and used extensively. But it would only be one tool.

The most effective tool of an insurgency is the non-insurgent population. They become cover and concealment for the militants. No one is an enemy. Everyone is an enemy. Enemies look like civilians, civilians look like the enemy.

Sure, handguns will play a part in that. But so will a whole lot of other tools. Who would have imagined the military power of the CELL PHONE before .iq and .af? Donkey carts! Broken down cars.

Fortunately, I believe that we're still a very long ways as a nation from having to consider the handgun as a tool against a modern military in our own country. But to think that it won't be utilized in low intensity urban warfare is folly. It will have its place.

 

[ilbob]

Fortunately, I believe that we're still a very long ways as a nation from having to consider the handgun as a tool against a modern military in our own country.

I think you are right, but we get closer to the precipice every day.

 

[roger505]

roger505

I pry to god that we are not! But if we are, just how many old snake eaters do you think are out there? Just who do you think they will fallow? Remember talented amateurs?
As a case of making lemonade I offer the fallowing true story. A friend of mine was stationed at an Air Force base in Nam, as it was in " a secure area" the commander had all weapons locked in the arms room, with "don't worry, the CQ has a key and will open if need". Well--- they were hit by a company of VC and my friend could not reach the arms room [ they had to brake the door, CQ nowhere to be found]. He took a flight line fire extinguisher and headed for the ditch, making it one jump ahead of a vc who tried to bayonet him. He stuck the nozzle in the vc's face and puled the trigger. This left him with one Charley sickle and a AK, ammo and several grenades. He used this to fight the rest of the night.

Remember.
There are no deadly weapons, just dangerous people.

 

[Justin]

Evidently hso's attempt at closure didn't take.