What Gun for School Defense?

[Fosbery]

Semi-auto only FN P90 or HK MP7 with holosights.

Small and compact, large magazine capacity, ambidextrous, good penetration on body armour but not through flesh or walls, good stopping power.

 

[Stauble]

when i voted other i had Uzi in mind because of its small caliber, which wont over penetrate and go through walls. it can sort of fuunction as a rifle so it would be more accurate then a handgun. with a 30 or 50rd magazine in it you wont have to worry bout reloading too much.
an MP-5 would work just as well

realistically though i think that CCW holding teachers ought to have the option of carrying. and i think that everyone ought to take a gun safety course. hell they teach our kids bout safe sex at some schools so why not gun safety too?

 

[Fosbery]

Some schools? Not to go off topic but I'm seriously worried if there are schools not informing students about that sort of thing.

 

[GW]

in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

And Ms Lollypop wouldn't do the same with a shotgun?

Why is that so many people think a shotgun requires little or no training?:banghead:
Each shell launches from 8 to 12 .32 caliber projectiles all at once and even the best ammo produces the occasional flyer that strays inches from the group even at close range. A shotgun in close quarters, especially in a crowded school, requires far greater skill than a handgun or rifle.

 

[bclark1]

like i said, no HRT shots, i'm not expecting anyone at a school to deliver precision fire. the teachers are on defense, not offense, and if it's a guy with any skill they just want to keep him from entering their area of protection before the professionals get on scene. you'd be putting pellets down hallways not likely to exceed the effective range of 50 yards, if that. with a rifle, or pistol, you'd have somewhere between two-tenths and fourt-tenths of an inch diameter to put on your target, which takes skill under stress. just going for a quick google check, with a shotgun, you've got more than 6 up to 20 inches of diameter to work with between 7 and 20 yards. much easier. if you're concerned about spray and pray, the inexperienced teacher would also not likely be carrying shotgun speedloaders, so emptying the tube would be single digit shots at best, as opposed to spray and pray on a rifle hi-cap. a quick google search shows that buckshot will penetrate 12-16 inches of gelatin at 7 yards, which is about what handgun JHPs would. maybe you can throw some xtreme shock in the M249 you think the principal should be blastin away with, as it won't overpenetrate (um, or something, err), but then again the bullets would be attracted to the BG's and dodge the kids because they're so awesome.

 

[GW]

maybe you can throw some xtreme shock in the M249 you think the principal should be blastin away with, as it won't overpenetrate (um, or something, err), but then again the bullets would be attracted to the BG's and dodge the kids because they're so awesome

You seem to think that about buckshot
So what's a teacher to do when the loony is across the playground at recess shooting at the kids? Do you want to try telling me the pattern width of your buckshot at 100 yards?

And, since you know how to Google may I suggest you look up "Frangible ammunition" which will hopefully allay some of your overpenetration concerns for rifle ammo in the principal's SAW.

And why not HRT style headshots with a rifle?

 

[Joe Demko]

The main thing school personnel should be doing is getting the children to cover. Returning fire and taking down badguys would be secondary to that if the option even existed.

The sheer amount of disrespect and hatred for the American educator on this forum is just astonishing.

Get used to it. Both here and at TFL I've heard teachers called so many foul names, with "socialist" being an especially popular one, that I no longer bother replying. The bizarre fantasies the chief offenders have about the way school systems work indicates that they aren't sufficiently in touch with reality to be worth the energy of a reply anyway. Many of them truly, honestly believe that we issue grades based on "self-esteem" for example.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Get used to it. Both here and at TFL I've heard teachers called so many foul names, with "socialist" being an especially popular one, that I no longer bother replying. The bizarre fantasies the chief offenders have about the way school systems work indicates that they aren't sufficiently in touch with reality to be worth the energy of a reply anyway. Many of them truly, honestly believe that we issue grades based on "self-esteem" for example.

Yep all teachers are socialist atheists anti-gunners bent on destroying what it really means to be Uh-mare-i-kan, only interested in turning out brainwashed wimps.

Being an awful fence sitting moderate/libertarian, it seems to me that this is just another situation where the left wants to say "why can't we just make the problems go away" and the right has to find some scape-goat to blame the problems on.

It does get tiring. I'm just glad my wife doesn't visit this forum, all the anti-teacher sentiment here would make her feel worse about dealing with the already difficult challenges of trying to be a good educator.

 

[hso]

The anti-teacher anti-education morons are as guilty of focusing on the outlying examples to prove their predjudice as the Brady Bunch.:banghead:

 

[ndh87]

I would probably argue against a shotgun for this situation due to the fact that buckshot tends to spread out...which is the last thing you want when you have innocent bystanders nearby, possibly downrange, etc. Also because of that i wouldnt want to have to wrry about over penetration, even though many school walls are cinderblock, we all know that it doesnt take much from a .223 or 7.62x39 to go through a wall (after a few shots) I think i would favor a revolver set up to shoot .45 ACP, plenty of knockdown, and a lower risk of over penetration. However, seeing as most school walls are concrete, brick, etc. i wouldnt be too worried about using a .38.

However, realisticaly i'd have to say the most likely weapon to be favored for such a situation would be some sort of taser. (the ones with the darts and wires)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

OK, a weapon in a school locker for emergency is the same
concept as a ship's captain having a weapons locker for
piracy or mutiny. Except who is going to be using the weapon?

I vote for an M79 blooper shooting nylon beanbags containing
lead shot: less-lethal weapon that a teacher or assistant
principal might actually aim and fire in good conscience.

Predators attack schools precsiely because they are an
environment where the defensive use of lethal weapons
is hard to think of.

I would be reluctant to fire in a school: too much potential
for collateral damage.

 

[laurafan]

shotgun

I'd vote for a Benelli loaded with less lethal rounds ( beanbag, rubber ball ). Give teachers willing to undergo some training the lethal ammo. The benelli can swap the round chamber without having to unload the mag.

 

[bclark1]

GW man, they're teachers, not professionals. if you're a teacher, great, and i hope we've got more like you, but i don't think there is a prayer that we'll get the majority of the educational employees up to snuff for shooting actively, and even if we could it would raise a lot of policy issues. my point of view is that it if a school implemented a violence strategy would be short-range and reactive, and the goals of the teachers would be to corral and shield the children, not expressly to eliminate the threat. the premise of a "teacher response team" donning riot gear and storming the gymnasium is preposterous, and the point of employing this would be to buy the officers outside time and provide a defensive option for classrooms. i understand some schools do lockdown drills already, and that is my impression of what would happen, they'd try to isolate the students from the threat, not create a proactive resistence to neutralize it. for that purpose, i think shotguns are the best balance you'll get. they are easier to use with relatively little training for reasons cited - why don't more people shoot trap with pistols if not? their limited capacity encourages discretion, because you're not going to spray and pray if you'll be reloading one shell at a time every five seconds. they're best utilized at close ranges, which reinforces the intention by my assumptions, to stop an aggressor attempting to get into one of the student lockdown points. in terms of actually acquiring and storing them at a school, they're relatively cheap, they're robust and require little maintenance, and their large size (even with the barrel removed) decreases the likelihood of theft, as opposed to pistols or modular compact rifles that can be broken down with ease. i don't deny the shortcomings you've mentioned, and others, like how the teachers are SOL if the shooters are wearing armor. but grounded in reality, this is my opinion of the option that has the fewest drawbacks. you don't have to agree, but just try and understand what i'm getting at. it's been fun and you can have the last word if you're so inclined.

 

[jonnyc]

#1 - I'm nuts about guns (very different from a gun-nut).

#2 - I've been teaching in a public High School for almost 15 years (I better not spell anything wrong!).

#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.

#4 - Turn-over of teachers, and especially administrators, is so high that proper training is largely irrelevant.

#5 - Allowing CCW holders to carry in school, with possible state police supervision, is the most practical solution.

#6 - One step better would be the provision of a few pump shotguns loaded with less-than-lethal ammunition. Anything more is too dangerous and irresponsible. Not sure at this time how best to regulate or mandate their use. I'd be happy to have one locked in my closet.

#7 - As stated above, teachers can't be expected to turn into SWAT-jockeys and hunt down a hallway attacker. First priority is cover and isolation. The idea of being relatively defenseless in the face of a direct attack does scare the crap out of me. My classroom does contain a number of strategically-placed bits of wood, metal, and throwable furniture.

 

[GW]

i don't deny the shortcomings you've mentioned, and others, like how the teachers are SOL if the shooters are wearing armor. but grounded in reality, this is my opinion of the option that has the fewest drawbacks. you don't have to agree

Well I understand your POV better and will have to simply agree to disagree.
My whole stance is simply based on saving kids lives.
Back in the 80's here in California we had a lunatic name of Purdy who went onto a Stockton school playground and shot a bunch of kids with an AK-47 clone. I like to believe that a trained teacher/anybody with a rifle could have taken him out quickly and perhaps saved a few lives. And maybe saved CA from some very onerous laws too as it turned out:banghead:
The idea of herding all the kids into a room just doesn't cut it for me but in that situation, you are absolutely right that a shotgun would be the better choice if the BG come through the door.
I also admit that I am a rarirty/oddity in that I am a teacher who has taken a lot of firearms training courses, so I am confident in my skills with the rifle (2 courses of tactical rifle) and know (or at least I like to think I know ) the strengths and limitations of the riot gun (3 tactical shotgun courses).
Unfortunately, the bottom line here is that this is all just wishful thinking, at least here in California
Some day I would like to shake you and your wife's hand though
Teacher's who enjoy the shooting sports are rare jewels indeed
Be well.

 

[GW]

#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.

Why do you feel this way? Anyone motivated to take the training would probably be willing to practice and stay proficient. There are always exceptions to this but I think that statement is just wrong.

#4 - Turn-over of teachers, and especially administrators, is so high that proper training is largely irrelevant.

Why would the training be irrelevant?
Teachers do jump schools but that doesn't mean they would forget their training.

 

[Squidward]

I agree with hso.

 

[jonnyc]

Hi GW.
To answer your second first, I've probably seen more teachers move out of state and/or leave the profession than transfer to another school. Also, part of the training discussed above involved team activities. Constant changes of team members can seriously degrade the effectiveness of a team.
As doctors make the worst patients, so do teachers make the worst students. I have endured many horrific in-services where lots of training took place, but nothing was learned. I guess highly motivated shooter-teachers would go the extra mile to attain mastery, but I had in mind a wider, state-mandated pool of teachers who would place security training further down the list, somewhere around "Differentiated Instruction" and UBD.

 

[S&Wfan]

Hi,

Forget the "assault rifles." Not gonna happen in this country of so many folks who have never handled guns and fear 'em for irrational reasons.

Forget the shotguns. I wouldn't want my kid nearby when a nervous teacher swung the scattergun around. Heck, even Cheney got a little trigger happy with one.

Forget tons of training bucks spent on tens of thousands of teachers.

THE ONLY ECONOMICAL, EFFECTIVE SOLUTION . . . IS CCW CARRY . . . BY CURRENT CCW HOLDERS WHO TEACH!

Of course, these folks would need training, certification AND recertification on an annual basis.


BEST GUN?

I agree, the locked up Rambo rifles WON'T stop the initial attack and bloodletting. I'd leave this to law enforcement.

No, the best gun would be a stealthy gun that could be carried safely and totally undetectable on a daily basis by the teachers in the classrooms.

WHEN LOCKDOWN IS SIGNALED, MOST OF THE KIDS ARE SAFE . . . and the only folks in danger will be those locked in a single classroom with a BG.

BEST GUN? A Kel-Tec P32 . . . UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL, could neutralize the threat OR, even better, force the BG to surrender without a shot fired.

A .32ACP round would not be as great a threat to others.

Yep, stealth carry would keep a lot of BGs away . . . and eliminating schools as ultimate "soft targets" should be the goal.

 

[GW]

I have endured many horrific in-services where lots of training took place, but nothing was learned.

Ok you got me there

 

[Keith Wheeler]

#3 - No amount of training will make teachers or administrators proficient shooters.

...

#5 - Allowing CCW holders to carry in school, with possible state police supervision, is the most practical solution.

Uh what? So anyone who is a teacher can't be trained to be a proficient enough shooter to obtain a CCW?

 

[jonnyc]

Just what I said. Mandating teachers, even willing ones, to become shooters will not work. However, there are already lots of shooters who are already teachers. They can be trained to shoot in a school environment. The equation will not work in the other direction.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

SHotguns would be good, although, if the shooter(s) is in a crowd, or a crowded part of the school a rifle wouldnt be a bad choice

 

[Juna]

While I think an M4 would be nicely suited for the job, I don't think that would ever fly with the antis and the liberal media (not that that should stop it from happening in a fair world where the IIA is valued). I think auto-loading pistols or revolvers would be far more likely to be put in a school for starters. The media would plaster pictures of M16s and AK-47s and the words "assault rifle" all over the front pages. I can see it now... "assault rifles allowed in schools," (not that that's a bad thing, IMO).

 

[db_tanker]

A simple wheelgun in 38 special. Its concealable so that you can keep it "out of sight out of mind" and it still has a good amount of stopping power.

I don't think a Mossberg or a poodle-shooter in math class is somthing that should be needed or what we depend on.

The simple fact that the teachers and principals are CCW would be plenty of deterent, IMO.


MTCW
D