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What happens when you press a gun into an attacker's body?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by chopinbloc, Apr 9, 2015.

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  1. chopinbloc

    chopinbloc Member

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    I've heard people say that when a handgun is fired against a person's body, that the expanding gases seriously complicate the wound. I tested the theory with a S&W 638.


    Link for phones






    Spoiler:





    BB: 586.5 fps, 3.2"

    Impact velocity: approximately 900 fps
    Penetration: 14.1"
    Retained weight: 134.5gr
    Max expansion: 0.554"
    Min expansion: 0.426"


    It definitely tore up the clothing pretty well and added a lot of powder particles to the wound, but it doesn't look like the wound is any worse than normal.

    Would the results be different with a magnum? What about a rifle or shotgun? Were there just not enough gasses from the .38 spl to be a factor?
     
  2. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I would actually like to see the results of an autoloader. Logic tells me that pressing in will work the slide a small amount causing an out of battery situation. At that point whether it fires or not the shooter is in serious trouble.

    And to your point about magnum class revolvers, I have never seen much flash off of a 38 but I have seen 357 flamethrowers indicating the 38 has used up its acceleration energy where the 357 is still accelerating and the powder is still burning. I would expect all that extra energy in a 357 to do some serious damage.
     
  3. pockets

    pockets Member

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    That was my first thought also...after reading the thread title.

    .
     
  4. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    I've often thought that it was kinda a stupid thing to think of "complicating" a point blank gunshot wound by adding some gasses... :confused:

    I mean, really? That's like worrying about the lead-poisoning from the bullet.

    Let's think about this. You've just had a contact shot from a .38 or .40 or 12 gauge... is it really a concern that you might also have "aggravated" it?
     
  5. cat_IT_guy

    cat_IT_guy Member

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    No it isnt really complicating or worrisome (surely none of us in the heat of the moment would back up prior to firing to avoid complicating the would in the bad guy). But its still interesting to see the ballistics test. Sometimes "because I wanted to" is all the reason one needs.
     
  6. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    That's why you train to either shoot from a retention position, or if you do end up pressing the gun into the attacker, use the palm of your off hand to push the back of the slide forward, back into battery while you shoot (of course you'll have to cycle the gun to get a new round ready to fire). This works better with striker fired guns than it does with hammer fired guns, but I'm sure you could modify it to work with hammer fired guns as well.
     
  7. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Eyeballing that expanded bullet and thinking 14 inches of liver, spleen, stomach and kidney taking a jagged half inch hole thru them... (or spinal column...)

    Woe be unto whomsoever is on receiving end of that little snub nose.
     
  8. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Having recently been extra-perforated by high pressure gasses at close range, I can tell you it adds a great deal to the wound dynamic.

    There is a member here who has direct second hand knowledge of exactly how much extra damage gas does in addition to the bullet with a skin to muzzle impact, but i'll let him chime in if he chooses to do so.

    Unfortunately, your gel block does not have veinous and capillary tissues that get destroyed by gaseous expansion for us to marvel at.

    It also doesn't show the extent of the extra outer-body residues deposited along the entire area of gaseous expansion through the extra-enlarged temporary wound cavity that make infection quite disturbing to control.
     
  9. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    I makes it really easy for them to block, move way, or disarm you. Kind of silly.

    Mike
     
  10. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    I'm actually sorry you didn't cut the block open along the wound path to really get the inside view of what was going on. The best we have to work with is the shadow of the wound path as the sun passes through the rest of the block.

    Of course, the test did confirm one thing. I NEVER want to get shot point black. As Baba Louie points out, that penetration would cover a whole lot of organs, and that would be pretty darned nasty.
     
  11. garymc

    garymc Member

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    I wouldn't do this "use the palm of your off hand to push the back of the slide forward, back into battery while you shoot" for fear of messing up the gel block with a bunch of real blood.
     
  12. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    Really?
    Try it some time. If you push firmly it's just a bit of a sting, nothing more.

    There are also some videos on YouTube of people doing it. Just of the top off my head, look for Tactical Response Advanced Fighting Pistol where the students are straddling a punching bag while pressing the gun into the bag and shooting (not advocating straddling your attacker, but it does show the technique of putting your hand behind the gun while firing).
     
  13. garymc

    garymc Member

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    Learn something new every day. When I was about 11 or 12, my Dad was helping me shoot his semi auto shotgun and the bolt came back and cut and pinched his thumb or the fleshy part of the thumb/palm. He was a farmer and had very tough, calloused hands. Since then I've taken care not to have a finger or thumb near a semi slide or bolt. I'm 64 now.
     
  14. chopinbloc

    chopinbloc Member

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    The force involved in a 12 ga semi bolt is a lot different from that of a 9mm slide. The 12 ga cartridge is much more energetic and the 9mm slide is probably more massive. More importantly, the force transmitted when the object is already in motion is probably a bit different.
     
  15. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    +1. I was taught either retention position or if you have to contact shoot with a semi-auto pistol to basically punch out with the gun and then fire as retracting from contact with the other guy. Have never had occasion to do either in real life, so can't speak to how well they work when push comes to shove.
     
  16. moxie

    moxie Member

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    Just remember that if you're that close to the guy he's that close to YOU.
     
  17. shooter1niner

    shooter1niner Member

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    Please wiki or google the term "point blank". It does not mean up close and personal...
     
  18. WC145

    WC145 Member

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    You need to have a plan to reload and for follow up shots and pressing the slide from the rear only works with striker fired pistols.

    When we trained for contact shots with our duty pistols we held the slide with our off hand over the top of the slide gripping the serrations as though we were going to rack it but we held it firmly with some forward pressure so it won't go out of battery. Press the muzzle into your target and fire, racking the slide as you pull away to eject the empty case and load a fresh round, then fire a double tap into the target. It really doesn't take much force to hold the slide in place.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  19. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Gas leaves the barrel at about 20000 fps, in other words like a blowtorch.

    You need LIVE FLEASH to see the difference.

    Note:

    Brandon Lee, the son of Bruce Lee, messing around on a studio set with a revolver loaded with blanks, caved in his skull and died when he presses the muzzle to his head and pulled the trigger.

    Deaf
     
  20. tark

    tark Member

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    Deaf Smith, how right you are!! Gasses kill, all by themselves. Just ask John Eric Hexum....oops ...you can't, he's dead. Actor, popular Sci-Fi TV show in the 70s, "The Time Tunnel" I think it was. Killed himself by accident trying to show one of the other cast member's that his gun was only loaded with blanks. Put the muzzle against his skull and scrambled his brains. Poor guy was handsome, young, famous and had the world at his feet. If he had only held the muzzle even just an inch away he would be alive today with an ugly burn mark.

    My point is; gasses from a fired cartridge, if the muzzle is touching the skin, can obviously cause great havoc all by themselves.
     
  21. Bang!

    Bang! Member

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    Duh-delete.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  22. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    On a somewhat related note, I recently saw a knife that had a pressurized gas cartridge loaded in it to dump high velocity gas into a stab wound. WASP Knife

    Certain powerheads operate with blank cartridges to deliver a lethal blow to sharks and such.
     
  23. Thermactor

    Thermactor member

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    I thought it was a squib load that got Brandon lee when filming The Crow

    A squib load that got launched from the barrel by a blank cartridge at a distance of 15 feet or so
     
  24. WC145

    WC145 Member

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    That's what I have always read about his death.
     
  25. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Your right. I mixed up actors deaths.

    They pulled bullets, dumped powder, but forgot to take the primers out.

    They then replaced the bullets. Still must have been some powder cause usually a primer will just force the bullet into the rifleing.

    Deaf
     
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