What if 1911 never existed?

[TexasGunbie]

The discussion is not to imagine what world would be like without 1911... but the question is as follows.

If 1911 never existed, what would be the current best handgun that shoots 45acp?

BRAINSTORM!

 

[Isher]

CZ 97B (or BD if you like decockers) right out of the box.

Now ask a really hard question


Isher

 

[dovedescending]

Well, Browning invented the .45 acp specifically to use in the protoypes that became the 1911... so I'm going to have to go with "no guns would be chambered for .45 acp."

 

[docnyt]

Sig p220?

 

[Mike OTDP]

Remington Model 53. It was the gun that beat the 1911 in Navy/Marine Corps tests, was supposed to be adopted...then World War I intervened.

 

[pvthouse]

Glock 21.

 

[Oyeboten]

The Colt-Browning Models 1905, 1907, and 1910 .45 Autoloaders then...if no Model 1911 were to be available.

I used to have a Model 1905 .45 ACP an it was a sweetie...if preferring slightly reduced Loadings to it's younger Brother, the Model 1911.

 

[swinokur]

If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

 

[TexasGunbie]

If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

why??

 

[harmon rabb]

If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

Ah. One of the guys that thinks handguns win wars. They don't. They're almost not even a factor in war. Most infantry WW2 weren't even issued pistols, iirc.

 

[Zerodefect]

....then we'd still be shooting revolvers. Do you really think semi-auto's would have ever become popuar without the 1911's help?

Otherwise Glock 23/22/21.



Whats interesting to me is that noone has really come out with an all steel direct competitior to the 1911 with modern tech. I think thats just because such a weapon would be too expensive to produce. Too much of a risk for the manufacturer.

Imagine a modern 1911 with:
-full cocked Striker, no hammer
-ramped barrel, no bushing or barrel link
-high capacity mags (similar to STI maybe)
-SA trigger

Now that would grab my attention, after all the 1911 is 100years old. Should be a way to make an original design thats just as good without going the cheap polymer and DA trigger route.

 

[Joe Demko]

If there had been no 1911, then I see the US either sticking with a revolver or following everybody else down the 9mm-ish route. Historically, the US was the only major player who thought a big bore automatic pistol necessary. The tiny few other countries that used one got them from us, licensed them from us, or just outright counterfeited them.
Had we gone down the mid-bore route, who knows? Perhaps there would have been a domestic design adopted. Maybe we would have licensed production of some foreign piece. Regardless, I agree that if there hadn't been a 1911 there wouldn't be a .45 acp. The 1910 and other 1911 predecessors would be historical footnotes along with the cartridge they fired.

 

[harmon rabb]

If you get rid of your striker requirement, there are a variety of CZ pistols that fit.

 

[DonRon]

The Europeans have been very successful with all other calibers over the years. The .45 ACP is not by any means the end all, be all in handgun calibers. It just might be the worst!

 

[swinokur]

If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking German or Japanese.

Lighten up fellas. It was done tongue in cheek because of the fanaticism about the pistol

 

[IlikeSA]

Hey ZeroDefect, didn't you just describe the XD?

-full cocked Striker, no hammer (Check)
-ramped barrel, no bushing or barrel link )not sure about the ramped barrel, but bushingless and barrel linkless)
-high capacity mags (Check)
-SA trigger (mushy, but SA)

 

[easyg]

The .45 ACP is not by any means the end all, be all in handgun calibers. It just might be the worst!

Please explain.

 

[Radagast]

The 1911 not exist? You Atheist!
As for the best platform for the .45 ACP, sans 1911? Probably the Glock 21 or the S&W M&P. Of course, then it would be known as .45 GAP or .45 S&W Auto.
The platform that it would have ended up in would probably have been the Savage Model of 1907, which was the runner up in the pistol trials that ended with the acceptance of the 1911.

 

[Jim Watson]

There would still have been a .45; the Army set out a requirement for the caliber in 1906. There was even an ACP length rimmed round (NOT the same as .45 Auto Rim) to be used by anybody who wanted to enter a revolver in the trials.

Browning and Colt had anticipated the trend in 1905. I have always assumed that they heard of the Thompson-Lagarde tests and saw what was going to be wanted. They sure gave up on the .41 ACP.

I wonder if there would have been Savage and Remington autos if there had not been the Colt/Browning guns. One thing dictating Searle's and Pedersen's design work was the very comprehensive set of Browning patents that limited what they could do. Maybe they would have come up with their guns anyhow; no way to know at this late date.

 

[Mad Magyar]

I have always assumed that they heard of the Thompson-Lagarde tests and saw what was going to be wanted.

For the uninititated, in a nut-shell with firing into dead & live carcasses, they concluded that "bigger was better"....

 

[Joe Demko]

I don't doubt that there would still have been a .45. What I doubt is that, without the 1911 pistol, it would have become popular. It's no secret that the civilian market tends to want what the military has. There were other "big bore" auto cartridges in the early years of autos. None of them caught on like the .45 acp did. That gummint stamp of approval meant a lot.
The Savage pistol that competed against the 1911 wasn't nearly as good a design. If the military had adopted it, I could easily see them being dissatisfied with it and ditching pretty quickly. If still wedded to the idea of a .45, then I guess it would have been back to the revolvers already in stock...especially if we were involved in WWI.

 

[Slamfire]

If 1911 never existed, what would be the current best handgun that shoots 45acp?

Who said the M1911 is the best 45 ACP on today's market?

Back in 1911 it was the best semi automatic pistol but it was not sufficiently advanced to cause all Armies to replace their revolvers.

The British kept Webley's until WWII, the Russians may still have some revolvers in service. The US was still issuing revolvers during WWII. I am aware of guys who carried revolvers in Vietnam. One who carried a Ruger Blackhawk in 357!. And he carried that in combat.

When the P38 became the standard service pistol of Germany in 1938, the concept of a single stack, single action semi auto matic pistol became obsolete over night.

 

[Pyro]

Then I guess we'd been using the Colt 1905 or Browning would have developed a different gun in similar caliber.
edit: I mean to say if the 1911 was never made, there would have been new developments leading up to today.

 

[yeti]

If we didn't have the 1911, we'd be speaking Tagalog.

 

[EdLaver]

I've always pondered a Beretta 92fs in .45acp. That would be nice if the 1911 never existed.