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What if it was you?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ProficientRifleman, Apr 11, 2008.

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  1. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    Hmm, what if it was me?

    ===========

    Well, I have two dogs that are inside the house. The female is quite sensitive, I call her my Early Warning System. She'll call out at night or day if someone is on the sidewalk across the street.

    The male is more circumspect and will wait until the person is on our sidewalk.

    What usually happens is the female wakes me up. I then put on my Rx glasses and pick up my flashlight. How fast I hurry depends if the male sings out. If he doesn't, I open the quick-access safe and extract my HD pistol & then mosey through the house, checking the windows for what it was that alerted the pooch(es).

    If the male does sing out, I do it more quickly and move much faster.

    When folks come inside the front or back yard fence lines, the dogs get quite agitated. The few times this has happened at night, I have had the old adrenaline dump and wife & I both moved: me to check things out, wife to collect kiddos & bring back to MBR.

    ===============

    So, "what if it was me" depends on how fast the SWATties move before they kick down the door. If they wait more than a few seconds to bust in after coming down the street or approaching the fence line, the pooches will have given enough warning so that me & my wife are awake and that I am armed.

    Once they get close to the house, the dogs are going to go bonkers and wife & I will likely be in the middle of our respective duties.

    When they try to remove the secured screen door, it will create quite a ruckus and I expect doggies to be jumping through their 4th point of contact.

    ===============

    Given my experience & training with Uncle Sam, my poochies would definitely have me awake & alert before door-kicking began. I have these dogs partly for their heightened senses & sensitivities and I do not admonish them when they sign out at folks.

    Now, if the dogs were somehow out of the picture, the first inkling that something was going down would be the SWATties trying to break the screen door, which opens OUT and is secured. It will make a ruckus.
     
  2. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    :fire:

    What makes me mad is that my dog would most likely have been shot by the police.

    The other thing that makes me mad is they do not have the right to storm into your house. That is a violation of the 4th ammendment. All of the officers should be fired and the agency sued. This isn't a joke. Someone could have gotten killed or their loved ones could have.

    "honest mistake"... If I made an honest mistake like that I would be fired, I would be thrown in jail. The Police should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. If I bust into my neighbors house on suspicion of anything I would right then be in massive violation of the law.


    Your dogs would only bark a few times before a sniper (with a suppressed weapon most likely) removed them from the realm of the living.
     
  3. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    To add on to what I previously wrote...

    Given:
    1. I don't have a long arm, just a 1911 in hand*
    2. SWATties have done no recon of Casa jfruser

    1. I would likely have to be very good or very lucky to cause damage to a fully-armored SWATtie, what with K-pot, vest w/ plate & such.
    2. I would have time, given the SWATties' ignorance of my house's layout, doors, and dogs. Most likely the first shot would be mine to take, if I chose to do so.

    If my wife has not finished collecting the kiddos in the MBR (and arm herself) , I would be more inclined to buy time for her and let fly.

    Me & dogs wold likely become past-tense, right quick, as the SWATties do their best to make it back to their homes that night.

    ============

    All in all, it would be better just to knock and show me the warrant. much less drama, adrenaline, and risk for all involved.



    * Kiddos are still toddlers. We have not found a good way to keep a long arm at the ready as well as secured form their little fingers. Thus, I make do with a 1911 when I would rather have a 12 ga Rem 1100 with 7+1 slugs or a rifle-cartridge carbine at hand for HD.
     
  4. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    Unlikely. My dogs are inside & curtains/blinds are drawn. They would have no LOS.

    They always sleep inside and usually sleep in the front room, facing the foyer & front window. If they move forward to the front window and stick their snouts through the blinds to get their bark on, I could see a SWATtie shooting them in the face through the window, as he is waiting to get through the front door.

    All this assumes a night door-kicking.

    These aren't guard dogs, BTW. Just bird dogs, German Shorthaired Pointers. Very alert & work-oriented. Kinda like Jack Russel Terriers with a work ethic. But, neither one has ever bit a human and I would not expect them to do anything other than bark like heck. Most likely would end up dead, after the SWATties got inside.
     
  5. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    Sir, I believe I did respond to your question regarding what I would do. I re-quoted portions of my original answer to this question below... That is honestly how I think it would go down if the SWAT team accidentally performed a no-knock warrant on my house. Simply put, most folks don't sit around at home all day waiting for these things to happen. I am prepared for a burglar, but not a SWAT team!


     
  6. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    Whatever. You say this due to your infinite wisdom regarding SWAT tactics?

    I'm not about to start revealing how these operations are planned, coordinated, and executed... Some of you other LEO types already know, and the rest of you are certainly free to make some educated guesses...

    But, suffice it to say, I've never once seen a sniper take out a dog in my entire career.

    With all due respect, you are trying to sell your fantasy as a reality on the internet, in what I believe is another transparent attempt to further discredit law enforcement agencies.
     
  7. ProficientRifleman

    ProficientRifleman Member

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    coloradokevin

    I stand corrected. You did indeed reply.
     
  8. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    Dude.... Google it. It happens. In fact, I can't even blame them for doing it as the dog does pose a danger in a dynamic entry, but when you combine that with getting the wrong house.... It just gets ugly.

    I get weary of people saying "what they have seen" as the definition of reality. I have never SEEN CHINA, but I can be more than reasonably sure it is there! Google it. SEE. Then tell me if they entered my house my Boxer would be OK.

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/33289.html

    http://www.google.com/search?q=dogs...ox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH

    http://www.google.com/search?q=dogs...ox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH

    Edit: I am asking for some FORETHOUGHT and ACCOUNTABILITY, not apologies. The same standard I am held to when I break the law.
     
  9. Ithaca37

    Ithaca37 Member

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    First and Foremost, my comments directed at you were childish and I am sorry. That said, you didn't point out my error to make a point, you did it for the reasons I previously stated.

    Grammar mistakes and kicking in someone's door in the dead of night are hardly on the same level. I think we agree that is this is somehting that somebody will be/should be punished for, so perhaps we should just let it alone. All I will say is that the government regularly doesn't pay for its mistakes as mere citizens do for errors of the same magnitude. Look at budget management for starters. Here in my state health and human services "lost" $20 Million. If you or I were running a business and just told the IRS we lost $20 Mil, we wouldn't get a pass.

    Same here.
     
  10. blackcash88

    blackcash88 member

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    Because then you'd have to train the goons on how to use it and they are absolutely NOT 100% accurate.
     
  11. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Citation for this? I've lived in Colorado the entirety of my adolescent & adult life, and off hand the only thing this sound like is the murder of Ismael Mena by Denver PD.

    Were it my home?

    BOOM!!! BOOM!! BOOM!!!

    "Uh, the door won't open..." 1.

    "Take out the window"

    CRASH!!! tinkle tinkle...

    At which point Mr. ATF Agent and his buddies get to take plunging fire from the balcony overlooking my main level where the front door is. I'll 'prolly get a quick exit from this incarnation as a result, but I've been dead before and know it will happen again one way or another. May as well take some of those fools with me.

    1. The door frame and door are steel reinforced to the point that nothing short of an armored car will get it. The windows are next on the list for upgrades.
     
  12. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    They'll pry the frame open with a hydraulic jack. Nothing stands up to that. Sorry.
     
  13. R127

    R127 Member

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    As long as the police insist on acting like criminals they will be identified as criminals during their actions. That means they will continue to occasionally choose the wrong house for their hillarity and hijinx and they will get hurt for it. Any law enforcement officers reading this thread ought to take that to heart and bring about change in their department.

    It is a very good idea to harden your home against this sort of stuff. The last thing anybody needs is to be blown away by some jumpy swat cop with an itchy trigger finger just because you were lucky enough to win the wrong house lottery. Shouting through a megaphone to a bunch of would-be housebreakers stuck outside has a much better probability of everybody coming out of the situation alive than if they get inside.
     
  14. TexasSkyhawk

    TexasSkyhawk Internet SEAL

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    No need to apologize, but apology accepted.

    Probably wasn't the best analogy or method to point out how all of us are never infallible, especially when a little stress is thrown into the mix.

    For the record, comparing a grammatical slip with kicking in the wrong door is comparing apples to onions. BUT mistakes happen, and then they take on a life of their own, unfortunately.

    If the warrant in the situation we're discussing had the wrong address on it, then that can hardly be blamed on the team serving the warrant. Whoever typed or otherwise is responsible for the wrong address should definitely have to answer for it.

    Likewise, if the team leader misread the address, or otherwise screwed up, he/she should definitely have to answer for it.

    Now, I've been out of the business for a long time, but while in it, I honestly did not ever see a raid happen on a wrong addess--at least not in my agency. I did know of two that occurred, on opposite ends of the country--by a sister agency in which a headquarters agent-weenie was responsible for the wrong address and info being on the warrant.

    I also know that the agent-weenie was investigated by OPR (our version of Internal Affairs), fired, indicted and convicted. Just wasn't a whole lot of stink made over it publicly.

    Also know, for a fact, that the two home-owners were VERY well compensated for their trauma.

    But in this age of cop-bashing, those little details are ignored or forgotten in favor of the more sensational.

    And, speaking of mistakes and being held accountable . . .

    Fifteen years ago, another of my cousins was killed by a motorist who lost control of her car. My cousin was assisting a stranded motorist who had a sick child and was trying to get to a hospital. This occurred during our once-a-year ice/snow storm.

    The motorist saw her red & blues, and as any cop will tell you, those red & blues attract motorists like a moth to flame. The passing motorist lost control of her car and ran over my cousin, who later died at the hospital. She left behind a husband and toddler.

    The motorist made a mistake that cost my cousin her life. But that's what it was--a mistake. To this day, our family still sends this woman a Christmas card. She was a wreck for weeks and months afterwards, even though we assured her of our forgiveness.

    Point is, you also don't know the aftermath of such mistakes on the part of the offending party's role.

    I knew both team leaders in the botched federal raids. One of them resigned from the special response teams and went back to being a normal street agent. While no shots were fire in either raid, this one guy simply couldn't get it out of his mind what could've happened. The other agent resigned completely.

    Also not saying that's what all cops do who screw up--but good cops have a conscience, along with an inheritent desire to do good. Mistakes hurt, both personally and professionally.

    It's the jerkoff power-rangers you have to worry about.

    Jeff
     
  15. Noxx

    Noxx Member

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    My dogs operate in the same manner as JFR's. Little girl barks, I might stir a little and give a listen, but if Jimmy sounds off, I'm out of bed in a hurry.

    I understand the premise of this thread, but I don't really think we can get much of value here. I mean, we're a community of well armed people who have given, as a rule, a lot of thought to our personal security around the house.

    "What if it was me?"

    What if it was any of us? You could probably expect a firefight and an unhappy conclusion for all involved, short story.

    I personally find this story just one more example of how these types of raids are just a terrible idea as a whole. "Dynamic entry" my a**. Pick up your suspect in a vehicle, turn off the water and power and wait em out, whatever. But this tactic, seeing it go wrong once should be enough to rethink it, and we've seen it go wrong many, many times.

    More importantly in the instance of these BS raids where drugs are the incentive, the math just doesn't add up. You have a person or persons suspected of a crime that has no possibility of a capital sentence, and in order to apprehend them with the evidence, both the accused, the LEO's, and quite possibly the innocent are thrust into a life and death situation. That's just bad asset management right there, doesn't add up.
     
  16. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    Sir,

    I never claimed that dogs have not been killed in the line of duty. But, that does not mean that dogs are being shot by police snipers using suppressed weapons, as you allege.

    I am aware of instances where dogs have been shot, but I am aware of no instance where a police sniper has shot a dog with a suppressed weapon (not saying it has never happened, but you seemed to indicate that it is the norm). Also, none of the links you've provided mention instances of snipers shooting dogs during police engagements!

    Also, when I speak of "what I've seen" in this context, I am refering to my on the job experiences in law enforcement.

    Personally, I like dogs. I've always had dogs, and I feel compassion towards these animals in a way I don't towards their owners. As such, I've even deployed Tasers against dogs in the past that I've been more than justified in shooting, just because I don't want to kill a dog... I'm also not saying I wouldn't ever kill a dog, I just generally like the dogs better than their owners!

    One of my partners was bitten a couple of years ago, and another officer shot that dog. It does happen, but I argue that it does not happen in the planned black-ops style manner in which you suggested!
     
  17. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    Colorado Kevin...

    :neener:
     
  18. romma

    romma Member

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    Seems to me, the reason most of these no-knock raids are done is to preserve evidence, not because life and death deems it necessary...
     
  19. ProficientRifleman

    ProficientRifleman Member

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    TexasSkyhawk

    That is exactly what they should do, though, make the correction public. This would go a long way toward changing the public perception of teflon coating.
     
  20. Ash

    Ash Member

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    Had some sheriffs show up to our camp-site once while we were backpacking in the mountains of North Alabama (Morgan Lake to be exact). We were dead tired and were in our tents and asleep by 9:00PM. Nobody had come up to the site since 4:00PM when we got there (in other words, there was no chance anybody had seen us).

    At around 10:00PM two sheriffs cars showed up and turned on their lights, demanding us to come out. We had collies with us, one in each tent, and they were trying to get out of the tents to see what the lights were about. I called out that I was getting out of my sleeping bag and pulling back the dog. I poked my head out, and was met with the cruiser's search-light in the face. Of course, I covered my eyes. The deputy asked what I was doing, and I told him I was trying to sleep. He asked where we came from and I told him where we had parked the Jeep and started our hike and then told him where we were heading over the next two days.

    The deputy then told us that some witnesses reported we were doing drugs. I told him that was impossible because nobody had been there since we set up camp, and that we were not doing drugs on a back-packing trip. My friend, a member of the Wandering Men, yelled out from his tent that if they arrested us, we would get to sleep in a bed and at least would get a warm meal. I knew that would get us in trouble, but they turned out the lights and drove off.

    There was no need for them to lie to us about the drug thing, and as we were doing nothing wrong and only trying to get some sleep (didn't eve build a fire that night), what they were doing was harassing us (perhaps not legally, but in reality). We were camping near a lake along the Pinhoti Trail, a well-established back-packing trail that runs for more than 100 miles. There were no cars parked at this location and it was blatantly obvious what we were doing there (with backpacking tents, no less). Screwing with some hikers was not very professional.

    Ash

    Ash
     
  21. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Not much discusion of legal issues, here...
     
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