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What if the internet/indy media/ hard left is right???

Discussion in 'Legal' started by reagansquad, Nov 18, 2004.

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  1. reagansquad

    reagansquad Member

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    What if the internet/indy media/ hard left is right and the Diebold machines really did count votes incorrectly in favor of George Bush? A UC Berkly study seems to think it's a strong possibility. So the the 3rd part candidates for the Constitution and Libertarian parties. Would you accept 'the other guy'? What if Bush was shown to have his hands all over rigging the election? What would your reaction be?

    ...Please, no "It's just not true" responses. That's not the point of this thread. This is purely a hypothetical mental excercise.
     
  2. sigmaman

    sigmaman member

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    lol
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahahhaaomg stop stop please
    you mean what if john kerry really was the people choice?
    would the republicans accept it
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahaha
    no of course they wouldnt
    i wish people would stop trying to figure out who the republicans are running in 2008'
    its going to be george bush
    future president for life george
    king george
     
  3. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Yes, there's been some vote-hacking going on. The question is "how much"? Enough to overturn the results? I have no idea. Neither does Bev Harris or Ralph Nader or Badnarik or anybody else.

    What we DO know: the Diebold machines suck. All of 'em, optical scan and touchscreen. They all use the GEMS tabulator - go here to download the video demo of that turkey:

    http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1363434

    We also know that the same flawed Federal oversight process that "certified" Diebold also certified ES&S, Sequoia, Hart Intercivic and the rest. So not a one of 'em can be trusted without hand-checking paper votes and in the case of touchscreens those don't exist (except in Nevada - those guys KNOW how electronic systems can be rigged, they've dealt with that for decades).

    What that leaves us with is a disaster: we cannot absolutely prove who won the election after the fact.

    "Disaster" isn't too strong a word, folks. Enough years of such lack of certainty, the nation will come completely unglued.

    So we have to do our best to sort out what the hell happened Nov. 2nd. My own lawyer, Lowell Finley, is on a plane for Florida right now at Bev Harris' request. Excrement has well and truly hit the rotary air movement device in Volusia County FL, as we knew it would because there was an attempted electronic vote hack there in 2000 using Diebold gear. It was a VERY crude attempt, too crude for Diebold (at that time, Global Election Systems) to have carried out. And the perps of 2000 weren't caught, and had inside access to the machines. Didn't take Einstein to guess they might try again.

    Obviously, I'm torn between my hatred for Kerry and my hatred for junk voting machines. It's possible that my activism against the latter could put the former in office - not terribly likely but a possibility I have to live with.

    I've had some rough nights over this, folks.

    What I think is this: if we go election after election with a sizable chunk of the population on the losing side convinced that the election was a ripoff, we'll have civil war, and a much worse situation than a Kerry presidency could ever deliver.

    :(
     
  4. reagansquad

    reagansquad Member

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    OMG Jim. Good post. :eek:
     
  5. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    Nonsense.

    This thread deserves a quick death.
     
  6. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    If it is shown that the Republicans perpretrated massive voter fraud then they should be shown the door no matter who the other guy is.

    Voting isn't voting if it is all about fraud.

    Chris
     
  7. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I'm supposed to believe anything from that cesspool of leftist extremism? Might start snowing $5 bills later this evening, too.

    Bingo.
     
  8. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    I don't doubt that mistakes happened.

    I don't doubt that certain individuals, in particular areas, would have hacked the vote if they could - although I don't know whether or not this happened.

    I doubt very strongly that there was an electoral conspiracy by the Republican Party and/or its surrogates to tamper with electronic voting machines across many states, in many different jurisdictions. It's just too big to remain concealed: for certain, something would have leaked out before or during the process.
     
  9. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Yeah, let me back up the Preach here: ain't no way this is a conspiracy running up through the White House. No chance.

    A conspiracy within Diebold? Yeah, it IS possible. Between two or more of the electronic voting companies? Less so, although there *are* family ties between the two biggest (the Urosevich brothers high up the food chain at both Diebold and ES&S).

    But beyond that? No. Somebody would blab.

    (Crookedness in some of the *county* election staff? Dead certainty. Two for sure are King County WA and Volusia FL. Cook County IL :D. And too many others...Riverside California has a horrendous stink to it, with San Bernardino almost as bad. Which is why they can't be allowed to have tamper-friendly crap like GEMS handy.)
     
  10. reagansquad

    reagansquad Member

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    I live in Washington. I've lived in Eastern, Central, and Western Washington. There is no way on earth that Dino Rossi could get elected here... or even be as close as he was. I consider myself to be neutral since I don't care for either of the candidates... but I just know this state.
     
  11. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    It was HALLIBURTON!

    HALLIBURTON, I tell you, HALLIBURTON!

    And the Saudis who were in on the Afghanistan Oil Pipeline conspiracy so that Dubya's buddies could secretly pipe in their actual gay lovers for romps in big piles of Enron cash......They were the one who paid for it all!!!!!

    You won't believe me, but of course you won't because THEY'VE ALREADY BRAINWASHED YOU!!!!!!!!

    Or something like that......

    hillbilly
     
  12. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    I believe that voting is rather important. Either by stupidity or maliciousness, Diebold has screwed up many voting records. I rather doubt it's a conspiracy, but I believe something is amiss. To answer reagansquad's question (which few people are doing), if it can be proved that Diebold rigged the election, heads should roll.


    By the way... Mr March, thank you for taking the high road when others here would and will not. Someone has to stand up for what's right even when it is not popular amoung his peers.
     
  13. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    I think a more important issue is the massive voter fraud in New Hampshire, some of it witnessed by THR members. It goes beyond a malfunctioning voter machine, into an well organized conspiracy to commit voter fraud by the democratic party.
     
  14. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    You bet there's more up than just machine-related issues.

    OK, let's recap the various ways things can go wrong:

    1) "Fake voters". No fraud within the county election process; people set themselves up to vote in to counties or even two states, or vote when they're not able (no citizenship, felony, etc). Thing is, it's legally risky and takes a huge number of individuals to pull off. About the only time you COULD swing things is in a situation like New Hampster: small slightly conservative state next to a big liberal one. Trust me, at some point we'll deal with that: we'll get computerized lists of voter reg data from New Hampster and Mass, and cross-ref. No rush on that. Lemme know which New Hampster counties to focus on for that.

    2) Old fashioned paper fraud. As one example, Napa County California did a dirty in the primaries: took a local race and in cases where voters didn't pick either, somebody in the elections office "marked the correct one for them". At least 38 cases of this were detected with forensic ink analysis. When done right, electronic voting can actually protect against this. The Open Voting Consortium proposal for an open-source system involves an electronic station that prints a paper ballot which is readable in English plus has a bar code scan ability. You can take the paper to a bar code reader station and have the bar code read right there if you want. With the voter's intent recorded in three different places (plain text on the ballot, bar code on the ballot and serial number linked to an electronic record of the vote) tampering becomes damned difficult. See also www.openvotingconsortium.org - I'm not connected, just a fan.

    3) Electronic tampering at the precinct level. Basically, rig the machine to do it's totals wrong or substitute a certain percentage. Not easy unless you're the manufacturer. In Diebold's case, we know that literally megabytes of custom code at the touchscreen terminals was installed without any certification at all, illegally.

    4) Rig the central tabulator. Most electronic systems use one central PC to tally the vote; security on most is suspect, documented as downright hideous in Diebold's case.

    5) "Disenfranchise via scrubbing the registry rolls". SOME of this was done in Florida just before 2000...but most was caught and fixed beforehand. Basically, people whose names were similar to a convicted felon were scrubbed.

    6) There are allegations that in Ohio, predominantly minority precincts got fewer per-capita voting machines which led to long lines in the rain and people going home without voting. I don't know if these allegations are true - IF they are, it's disturbing stuff. The credibility of all that needs to be looked at. BBV.org is aware of the complaints but is assigning this a lower priority than doing checks that involve potential machine tampering.

    ------------

    What's supposed to PREVENT all this is public oversight. The entire process is supposed to be open to public and press scrutiny.

    Which is one reason proprietary "God knows what it really does" software is such a problem. It's also a problem when the public and press are barred from the tabulator rooms, as is happening in Volusia County FL and one entire elections building in Ohio under the guise of "homeland security precautions" :barf:. That sort of crap cannot be tolerated.
     
  15. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "What would your reaction be?"

    I think I'd be outraged. Meanwhile, if all we have to go on is something out of UC Berkeley, I'm going to continue working to cure world hunger and trying to save the whales.

    John
     
  16. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    At this point, and somewhat based on the divisive Dem response to this election, I really don't care. And the fact remains that, despite the mutterings of some that sKerry couldn't have done too much damage, I will remain by my statement of fact, which is that sKerry would have gutted this nation in four years. And Hillary would have finished it off after 2008.

    Considering both candidates are lying cheats anyway it hardly matters if one managed to lie and cheat better. Just so long as he does less damage in the long run and, hopefully, provides some people an opportunity to come up with a better alternative later.
     
  17. secamp32

    secamp32 Member

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    Since the Liberal media has no credibility

    nothing they say can be believed. This is why the media is supposed to be unbiased. Once its been shown that you lie ie. GW's "Military records" or Jason Blair, everything you say is suspect.

    I make my living with computers and I wouldn't trust a computer as a voting machine without a paper backup. The voting machines should also have a finger scanner to prevent voter fraud.
     
  18. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    I agree with Cslinger

    "If it is shown that the Republicans perpretrated massive voter fraud then they should be shown the door no matter who the other guy is."

    You betcha they should be shown the door - the inside of one with vertical steel bars. OTOH, there's an old Yiddish saying, which translates to: If your Grandmother had b@lls, she'd be your grandfather. IOW, I don't think that a meaningful amount of this kind of fraud took place. If the Republicans did commit fraud, it was orders of magnitude less significant than what the Dems did (and have been doing since Chicago was invented). Dawn of the Dead, FEH! The Dems have been reviving carcasses for well over a century.

    I am really hopeful that there will be a full examination of ALL alleged voter fraud, and that everyone involved should be imprisoned. Emphasis there is on "hopeful", as opposed to "optimistic." I was born in the morning, just not yesterday morning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2004
  19. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I don't think there was massive fraud driven by top levels of government on either side mostly because of something that an old friend of mine told me once that made a lot of sense.

    "The problem with conspiracies is that people need to keep the secret for them to work and in my experience it seems that if three people expect to keep a secret, two of them better be dead."

    Chris
     
  20. sigmaman

    sigmaman member

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    bush won
    in 2000 he didnt and there was MASSIVE fraud in fla

    im sure there is a certain amount of fraud voter intimidation and other things by both sides in this election but i feel that bush won
     
  21. ravinraven

    ravinraven Member

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    Was it Lenin.....

    .....who said: "It's not about who votes but about who counts the votes." Or something like that.

    I can't believe a computer vote system would not have a printed record on paper. What a basic screw up that is.

    What is the matter with the old mechanical voting machines? We've been using these machines up here in the swamp since at least the early 40's. They seem to be tamper proof and have a printed record.

    rr
     
  22. GSB

    GSB Member

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    Wow, people act like vote fraud is a product of the electronic age. I think some people forget how Kennedy got elected, or that this sort of thing has gone on since the concept of voting first entered human consciousness. That's no reason not to improve the process, but a little perspective is in order.

    You know how you minimize fraud? Start throwing fraudsters of all political persuasions into a federal pen for several years by the busload -- that includes everyone from the vote-in-two-states peon to anyone caught ballot stuffing/hacking (yes, undermining our electoral process is THAT serious -- we are no better than a Third World banana republic if we can't keep control of our elections). But there appears to be about as much desire for that as there is to control our borders.

    Nonsense. I live here. There was no such thing except in the fevered brains of the media. Hanging chads indeed. What there was, however, was a concerted legal effort by the Democratic party to thow out votes they didn't like and come up with votes they did like, no matter how slim the pretext. It was all done within the letter of the law and court rulings, so you can hardly call it fraud, but it was distasteful.
     
  23. CarlS

    CarlS Member

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    There was not massive fraud in FL in 2000. There was fraud - and in every county in question, the Supervisor of Elections, an elected position, was a Democrat. Vote recounts by the Washington Post and the Miami Herald revealed that Bush won the state by a greater margin than the official, certified results. That did not make front page! Had it been the other way, it would have been headlines. Fl has 67 counties, the counties in question can be counted on two hands. That is hardly "massive voter fraud".
     
  24. Greg L

    Greg L Member

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    [adding another layer to the tin foil beanie :D ]

    It's a 'spiracy I tells ya. The lefties wanted W to win so he couldn't run again & Queen Hillary gets to be dictator for life starting in 08 (tragically however WJC had a "heart attack" 4 days before the election to pull in a huge amount of sympathy votes.... :scrutiny: ).

    :uhoh:
     
  25. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    If this is true, it will be Diebold going down for it. No way this went back to the president. I figure worst case, diebold goes out of business, and the counties that have those machines need to buy new ones.

    Of course there will be grumbling about how Bush stole the election, when in reality the election would have been stolen for Bush. Then again, I still hear about how Bush stole the election 4 years ago.

    JMHO
     
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