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What is a "ballistic loophole"?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by IMtheNRA, Dec 5, 2012.

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  1. IMtheNRA

    IMtheNRA Member

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    I've seen fleeting references to this term in rifle forums, but I can't find much info on "ballistic loophole" and it's application in precision shooting. I guess it is related to calculating indirect fire, but I'd like to learn more about the term's current meaning and applications.
     
  2. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    This topic concerns US military OPSEC and I would be happy if you left it be. You can find many other places on the Internet that run their mouths on this subject, but I should hope THR isn't one if them. I mean no offense, and in all honesty this topic has been fairly wrung out due to the Information Age, but maintaining OPSEC is my responsibility as a soldier. You cannot make a habit of something unless you practice it under all circumstances.
     
  3. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    A few months ago I saw a program on the History channel about military snipers and there was a segment in which the AMU were setting up and using ballistic loopholes. How secret can this stuff be. It's basic math for goodness sake!!
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Think shooting from concealment from inside or behind a structure through a hole in the wall, and you pretty much got it.

    It really has nothing to do with ballistics, as long as the hole is big enough to get the elevation necessary to hit the target through the hole.

    There.
    I hope we didn't give away too many military secrets or classified sniper information!

    But the first American solder to use it was probably shooting from behind a rock fence at Lexington or Concord.

    rc
     
  5. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    The equation is "secret". As I stated, due to the Information Age, it's fairly wrung out. Putting it to use is the truly difficult part, and can be dangerous to the hack operator and anyone who fancies themselves as the hack observer. Regardless of how you feel about its proliferation out there, your country would appreciate you leaving it be.
     
  6. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    Hooah.
     
  7. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    Let's not get into the government talk guys. The thread will be closed and no one else will get to chime in. He's asking a question about something to do with guns. That's part of being on the THR why take it so personally? It's just a simple question to a firearm related term.
     
  8. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    Sorry, I get paid to deal with and spit out "government talk". This isn't fully firearm related, it's mostly training related.…specifically training to kill people. I'm sorry, but I don't think you'll find need for this while deer hunting.
     
  9. Fishbed77

    Fishbed77 Member

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    It's not rocket science and it's not some big government secret. It's common sense based on line-of-sight. Maybe there's a formula that maximizes the relationship between range, field-of-view, flexibility, and concealment. Maybe not.

    Basically, you place the shooter deep in the interior of a room to conceal his position. The shooter looks and shoots out through a small hole or window. Considering the range of some sniper shots (even urban) the small hole can still give the shooter a wide field of view.

    This frees the shooter from having to remain motionless (he's invisible through a small hole in the wall to a darkened toom), and makes the shot and report harder to trace.
     
  10. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    I'm going to guess that a ballistic loophole is a hole in a structure which is in between you and your target that is sized and located such that your projectile travels through the hole. It's likely mostly used when firing inside structures. The main benefit is probably that it allows a room inside the structure to be used as a giant flash hider/suppressor.
     
  11. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    Jav, maybe people just want to try it at steel plates for a fun, new challenge. If you don't want to talk about it, then don't. Nobody's pushing you here.
     
  12. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    This sounds like info I've seen in a lot of movies, just without the term "ballistic loophole", that snipers shoot from inside cover instead of poking their gun outside of it.
     
  13. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    Don't shoot the wall guys.
     
  14. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    it's kind of hilarious that the formula for this is secret, because it's simple geometry.


    You need to figure out what the zero for the shot is, figure out the height above bore, and figure out the difference between POA/POI at the loophole plane. you need to make the bottom of the hole lower(or higher if the POI is higher) than the POI for the loophole plane (so you don't hit the wall) , and higher (or lower if the POA is lower) than the POA(so you can see your target).

    The first time I have heard the term ballistic loophole was about 20 minutes ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  15. Revoliver

    Revoliver Member

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    Jeehmehtree? You mean like that movie Life of Pi right?
     
  16. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    [MOD TALK: Knock off the insults, guys. (Posts deleted.) If it's related to shooting, it's on-topic for THR. There is no "OPSEC" involved in basic geometry or shooting techniques, as far as we're concerned. If you're active military and feel you can't talk about this -- DON'T. Thank you.]
     
  17. IMtheNRA

    IMtheNRA Member

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    :rolleyes: Well then, I guess we can do away with about 99.99% of THR and save a lot of time and all that typing...
     
  18. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    Ballistic Apps. Now everyone can be a ‘sniper’. :)
     
  19. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    More trigonometry, but same thing, right ;)


    The "classified" part is how to make it as small as physically possible. Yes, we can all make a hole in a piece of cover and shoot through it, and we can even use mathematics to make it pretty small; but none of us are going to go through the trouble to determine the formula to make it as small as possible.
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Indeed. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, and THR is not primarily a hunting site.
     
  21. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

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    Yeah it is pretty straightforward, and I have seen various shows that show it, so it can't be too secret. Also, anyone who has ever played paintball understands the concept. It is one of those things that is easy in concept, but VERY hard in application.

    If you are inside a structure during the day, it is pretty hard to see you in there, especially through a small hole. The "dynamic range" of the human eye is incapable of seeing both at the same time.

    So then, shooting through a hole, the closer you are to it, the less cover you have (that is, the precise angle at which a bullet fired AT you and hit you is much smaller). The farther from the hole, the more cover you will have, but the field of view through that hole will be less. You can move around to see different things, but you can't see much all at once.

    To get even more crazy/advanced...At first you might think that the hole needs to be at least 2" high in order to see through it with the scope AND shoot through it, but that is not necessarily the case. As we know, the bullet must be on the rise as it leaves the muzzle, which results in a close zero, and a far zero. So for instance, you might be zeroed at 25 yards and then again at 250 yards, depending on cartridge and scope-to-bore axis distance. If things time out right, you could theoretically view a target and shoot through a hole hardly large than the bullet diameter, and hit your target. Of course, the shorter distance from sight axis to bore axis helps.
     
  22. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    I learn and train for many things which have nothing to do with deer hunting.

    btw: commenting that something is OpSec itself is breaking OpSec. The proper response, if you can not avoid a response is "No Comment".
     
  23. lefteyedom

    lefteyedom Member

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    This shooting deer from a blind is using the same principle.

    Any type of successful "brush shot" is in fact shooting through an opening.
     
  24. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    So salty…

    I guess I've forgotten what it's like to question or just generally disregard what I've been told. It's your civic duty as citizens of this nation I suppose.
     
  25. IMtheNRA

    IMtheNRA Member

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    Oh, for God's sake, dude, get over yourself! Your sanctimony is trivializing "OpSec" itself. I did not ask for some "secret formula", I just wanted to confirm my understanding of the term, which I heard from an actual Army sniper on a Discovery Channel show, of all places! The term "Loophole" appears 28 times in the sniper field manual, which is posted all over the net, for example:

    http://preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/US_Military_Field_Manual-Sniper_Training.pdf

    And it begins with this: "All source material contained in the reproduced document has been
    approved for public release and unlimited distribution by an agency
    of the US Government. Any US Government markings in this
    reproduction that indicate limited distribution or classified material
    have been superseded by downgrading instructions that were
    promulgated by an agency of the US government after the original
    publication of the document."

    :banghead:
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
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