What is "good" for handgun groups?

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Starting from low-ready, shooting from a two-handed unsupported standing position and using a centerfire pistol, a good shooter should be able to:

With no time constraints, shoot a five shot group at 25 yards that measures 4" or smaller. (All hits in the X-ring of an NRA-D1 target.)

With a 30 second time constraint, shoot a ten shot group at 25 yards that measures 8" or smaller. (All hits in the X- and 10- rings of an NRA-D1 target.)
 
MrWesson said:
In my defense I mostly hang around USPSA shooters a couple being top tier(shoot for a living) and any one of these guys could barely hold a 3" group together at 30yds(most couldn't). I know its a different discipline but still.

"Top tier" USPSA shooters are (or should be) capable of 3"@25 under "target" conditions. First, the gun and ammo have to be able to deliver the goods, say under an inch at 25 yards, but a top USPSA shooter's gear can likely do that.

But mainly, one rarely gets to see them shoot towards this goal or under these conditions. I hang out with a lot of very excellent competitive shooters, and I can recall one instance where I actually saw one of them shoot for tight groups into a bullseye target with no time constraints.
 
Depends on what you're shooting for. Develop good fundamentals, then increase rate of fire from there while practicing reloading and weapon manipulation.
 
"Top tier" USPSA shooters are (or should be) capable of 3"@25 under "target" conditions. First, the gun and ammo have to be able to deliver the goods, say under an inch at 25 yards, but a top USPSA shooter's gear can likely do that.

But mainly, one rarely gets to see them shoot towards this goal or under these conditions. I hang out with a lot of very excellent competitive shooters, and I can recall one instance where I actually saw one of them shoot for tight groups into a bullseye target with no time constraints.

A big caveat here is they were using a service handgun with factory ammo same as me.

With a ported open gun with a red dot i'm sure they could put holes in holes.

I have shot a stage or two with a ported open gun and the accuracy is unreal compared to my service pistols(Glock,XD,M&P).

Even I can shoot 2" at 25yds with my .22 handgun with a red dot and usually hanging in or around the 10 ring at 15yds.

So I guess it really depends on the gun too. Next time I am at the range I am going to bench test my XD USPSA gun.
 
It always makes me both laugh and get angry when I see someone at the range who shows up with 5.11 tactical pants and Oakley boots, and a Glock shirt, a custom Glock with red dot site and then put the target three yards away, dump a magazine, and the shots are all over the place. This happened last week. Shooting fast isn't hard... anyone can move their finger quick. Putting the shots in the same place is the tricky part. That is why most of my shooting is at 25 yards with a pistol and it is slow. FUNDAMENTALS. You need to build up muscle memory. Speed is second to accuracy.
 
i have to disagree with you, gigg. i believe speed and accuracy are equal partners in the shooting game. the key is to keep both in balance.

increase your speed a bit and, with practice, bring your accuracy up to par. repeat this procedure until you are as fast and accurate as you can be.

if you get away from the game for a while, slow down until your accuracy is up to par, then run the speed up as before. this usually takes a short while (gettin back into your rhythm, so to speak).

balance is the key, for me.

murf
 
MrWesson said:
With a ported open gun with a red dot i'm sure they could put holes in holes.

So I guess it really depends on the gun too.

I agree the gun has to be up for it, but it doesn't require, IMO, the optics and/or porting of an Open class gun. Just a reasonably accurate gun & ammo (capable of, say, an inch or better at 25 yards), a good trigger, and sights you can see. The rest of the 3"@25 is up to the "good" shooter.

kneesus said:
Depends on what you're shooting for.

Yes, "good" depends on the application. But generally, when the question's asked, it's in the context of "what can be expected when a "good" shooter simply picks up their gun and shoots groups?". It's not about good action shooting (e.g. USPSA/IDPA) nor good formal target shooting (e.g. bullseye). It's about no timer, no score, no range commands, no other shooters...and no excuses ;): Just the shooter, their gun, a target, and all the time in the world. It's a shooter's polygraph. :D
 
A couple of years ago, I was introduced to a evaluation drill which does away with the shooter's ability to rationalize away shooting errors.

It is a series of 1" squares printed on a sheet of printer paper...12 squares; 3 across, 4 rows down...in the center is a .5" blank circle. The squares are rotated 45 degrees so that the tips point up and down (makes it easier to line up your rear blade laterally).

You shoot the drill at 5-7 yards and only fire one round at each square.

Then tell me how consistent a shooter you are.

It is also a good tool to determine how changes in grip affect your point of impact. Make the change and fire 3 rounds (1 at each square) without looking at your targets
 
If one were to use the IDPA and or USPSA/ISPC targets for accuracy standards within the parameters of time, distance, and number of shots fired: Target IDPA 8"Ø(body) and 6"X6"Sq (head) would apply without penalty –or- Target USPSA/ISPC 6"x11"retangle (body) and 2"X4" rectangle (head) would apply without penalty. Just an observation. That's all.
 
If one were to use the IDPA and or USPSA/ISPC targets for accuracy standards within the parameters of time, distance, and number of shots fired: Target IDPA 8"Ø(body) and 6"X6"Sq (head) would apply without penalty –or- Target USPSA/ISPC 6"x11"retangle (body) and 2"X4" rectangle (head) would apply without penalty. Just an observation. That's all.
Which, using a commonly accepted rule of thumb, would mean that you'd be practicing to a standard of half those sizes.

1. IDPA: 4" circle for the body and 3" square for the head
2. USPSA: 3"x5" for the body and 1"x2" for the head

...which is why I suggested practicing on a 3"x5" index card
 
Demos, the question is open

You shot a Ruger 22/45 and a Beretta 92 (something) at 50 feet.

For what purpose do you shoot your pistols?

A Ruger 22 pistol is commonly used in Bullseye competition - some with 'target modifications' and many without (depending on the intent of the shooter). 50 feet is the standard range for Bullseye shooting, with reduced targets, since 'regular' outdoor competition is fired at 50 and 25 yards. The black portion (the 'bullseye' is just over three inches in diameter for both slow and timed/rapid fire targets.

To be in competition for winning, one must hold all shots in that black spot, in Slow, Timed and Rapid fire. (That's a total of 90 shots.) One handed, standing, by the way.

Another use for the Ruger 22 pistol is hunting small game. So the accuracy goal is 'minute of bunny' at what ever distance one hopes to sneak up on said bunny. It is a bit more vague, but three inches at 50 feet would more than likely serve.

The Beretta pistol is essentially a self-defense pistol. The accuracy demands are a bit different. One could assume that since most self-defense encounters happen at seven yards or less, anything in the "A" zone of the current IPSC target would be suitable at seven yards.

I consider that standard a minimum criteria. My personal standard for a defensive pistol is the ability to make head shots consistently at 25 yards for a concealment sidearm; 50 yards with a full sized 'belt gun' (such as a Beretta 92, for instance).

You will have to decide your own needs in the matter.

Someone alluded to shooting with others. An old dictum in target shooting is "One only gets as good as one's competition." In other words, as long as one is the 'best shooter around', one feels no need to do better. From a self-defense viewpoint, who knows how 'good' your competition will be?
 

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Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically! If you're bullseye shooting, step out. Shooting for self defense, stay close, feet away!

Um, no. Increasing difficulty is good whether you are shooting or lifting weights or whatever. If you can lift 200lbs then 100 is a piece of cake. If you can hit the target at 50ft then hitting it at 25 is that much easier.

I also suggest not paying attention to group sizes. Treat each shot as if its the only one. Make each shot count and don't worry about your groups. If you can do that your groups will automatically shrink.

That being said I think the OP sounds like he is doing a fine job with that 22/45 of his.
 
Um, no. Increasing difficulty is good whether you are shooting or lifting weights or whatever. If you can lift 200lbs then 100 is a piece of cake. If you can hit the target at 50ft then hitting it at 25 is that much easier.

I agree with this. Shooting long distance made me better.

that being said the're many different ways to get better. Main thing is put rounds down range for practice and not for the noise.
 
Most pistol ranges that have 50yd lines that I’ve shot at you’ll find the 50yd yard line on average to be the least used. Ranges with 50yd & 25yd lines were basically intended for bullseye shooting in my opinion. Most individuals shooting the humanoid style targets have a preference for closer the better as opposed to standard 50yd & 25yd line distances.

One outdoor shooting facility I’m associated with utilizes pistol bays which are walled in on three sides. This allows shooters to setup and arrange targets for their envisioned scenarios. My observation is that without a minimum specifies safety distance for shooting steel targets; shooters would shoot at spitting distances if allowed.

The level of accuracy required is dependent on the shooters envisioned purpose or lack there of.
 
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically!

I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed. Those who are satisfied with combat accuracy while shooting in the very controlled & stress-free conditions of the typical range (i.e. no movement, slow fire, 1 target, good lighting, etc) would do well to either raise their accuracy standard, and/or start competing in events such as USPSA or IDPA.
 
Here are two targets of my carry guns using SD ammo.

Both were shot at 15 yards from a draw. The J-Frame is Double Action and the Bersa Thunder was DA/SA. The were shot rapid fire from a Weaver stance. I don't consider this to be bad shooting. Some might, but I don't. I don't have laser grips. The targets are 2" from Center "X" to the outside. So a 4" target.
 

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MrBorland said:
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically!
I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed.
This is a very relevant point

I recently attended a class which helped me define what this is

Shooting at a standard USPSA target (see post #35 above for measurements and post #37 for a picture) on a turning mount, the drill was to (1) react to the turn of the target by (2) drawing, (3) stepping sideways, (4) and placing two shots in the "A" zone...at 5 yards (15') in 1 second

I got up to speed by the second day and was especially happy with my consistently better DA first shot (shooting a .45ACP SIG 220). I wasn't anywhere near the top of the class (my reaction time is painfully slow), where the revolver guys (S&W 625) were placing all their rounds well within 2" at that speed
 
The problem I have when shooting for tight groups is I never know what I am really measuring that day; the gun, the ammo or myself.

I have a Colt Gold Cup that is capable of 1" groups at 25 yds with match ammo. However I am not near a 1" bullseye shooter. However with a service gun, I (prefer a revolver), 3" groups at 15 yds. is realistic. Untuned Beretta 92 with generic ammo at 15 yds? You bet I'd be happy with that

Ammo...cousin Bubba's reloads, Winchester white box bulk pack or match tuned to the gun?

Myself...caffeine jitters, breath control, front sight , front sight , dang it remember the front sight, grip, trigger squeeze
 
50 feet, that's about 15 meters, right ?
2.5" - 3.0 " 5/10 shot groups seem OK, shot the way you describe.
You could make it a goal to deliberately take time & care & get even better. AND have fun in the process !
 
I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed. Those who are satisfied with combat accuracy while shooting in the very controlled & stress-free conditions of the typical range (i.e. no movement, slow fire, 1 target, good lighting, etc) would do well to either raise their accuracy standard, and/or start competing in events such as USPSA or IDPA.

Yep.... I'm with you 100% on this idea.

On the other hand...

50 feet, that's about 15 meters, right ?
2.5" - 3.0 " 5/10 shot groups seem OK.......

Chriske, I'd be MORE than happy to manage this sort of group on a regular basis when I'm shooting slow and deliberate. As it happens I do manage to do that but many folks for a variety of reason can't manage groups that tight. And neither can I if I'm coffee'd up or just had a big meal before going to the range. For some reason I found I can shoot better if I'm not hungry but not overly stuffed either. So on my club's bullseye evenings I tend to have something light for an early dinner so I'm not hungry or full about an hour later when I step up to shoot. Even so my "oldguyeyetis" and nerves prevent me doing much, if any, better than 2 1/2 inch @ 20 yards even with my better guns on good nights. And without tooting my own horn I'm not the best but I seem to be better than mid pack at producing these groups. More typical for what I'd consider average shooters using a combat style handgun is to see 5 to 6 inch groups from a standing two handed stance at 25 yards. Which, if you think about it, is still pretty darn respectable when you see the shot group from the 25 yard line. It may not look like much to cheer about from up close but from back at 25 it's no bigger than a pencil eraser held at arm's length.
 
Yes.

Rd: Nice shooting that charcoal burner.
i believe speed and accuracy are equal partners in the shooting game ,
Depends upon the game, doesn't it? Shooting in the action pistol games....yes, of course. Shooting the Free Pistol, speed takes the rumble seat.

Pete
 
Next time you go to the range get a couple of silhouette type targets called B-27. If you can keep all your shots in the 10 ring (center of mass) from whatever distance you shoot, you are doing well. Don't worry about tiny groups, just consistent clusters.
 
The B-27 is about as old as the the belief in 5 shots in 5 seconds at 5 yards into 5 inches...it certainly isn't a standard that I would teach to or that I would be satisfied with
 
Your opinion is noted, but it is just that, an opinion. The B-27 may not be new but it still works and is used by many training instructors. 30+ years as an instructor has taught me that you don't disregard something just because it isn't new. It should not be the only thing that is taught but it certainly works as part of a training program.
 
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