What is "good" for handgun groups?

[9mmepiphany]

You're right, it is my opinion. But it is based on years of experience in LE and as an instructor.

The B-27 was the standard when I started in LE in 1979...and what I placed a lot of rounds onto while competing in PPC. The problem with using the B-27 is that it is too large and builds a false sense of confidence in a shooters ability to place shots accurately under pressure...to say nothing of the less than optimal placement of the scoring rings.

Just this weekend, I saw several shooters at the local range shooting on a B-27 and being happy with what they considered being prepared to defend their home. They couldn't even place two shots together at 5 yards while shooting at 1 shot per second.

I offered a few small tips as to grip and trigger control and placed a 3"x5" card on their target to shoot at. Not surprisingly their groupings shrank damatically.

When shooting a bit more quickly, 3-4 shots per second, I usually have clients shoot on a 6"-8" plate at 5-7 yards

you don't disregard something just because it isn't new

That is never a reason to discard something. However, when it is instilling bad habits/false confidence, that is a perfect reason...especially when there are better tools available

 

[Meeteetse]

I don't disagree with a thing you have said. My comment suggesting the B-27 was intended to establish a starting point for the OP. I did not suggest that it was a true test of accuracy or skill. I can tell you that as an LE and civilian instructor I have used the B-27 to establish a baseline of skills and worked from there to improve the skills of each student. With nothing to judge their skills against, seeing groups improve from their initial B-27 targets to smaller tighter groups on smaller targets helps the student "see" their improvement.

Seems as though we are on the same page, just looking at it from a different perspective.

 

[marv]

Minute of paper plate with a DAO .38 snub at 15-20 yds is good. Tighter would be better.

 

[JRWhit]

If your a leisurely shooter and don't shoot like its ur job, your doing great. Keep practicing.
If you keeping from pulling right, or pushing left, or dipping then you doing good with trigger control. Keep practicing and it keeps getting better.

 

[TestPilot]

It depends on your purpose.

For security purpose, tight enough group for a good head shot, no "grazing" shots, at a range I want to be capable of fighting at combat speed is good for me.

For some, that is 3 ft. For some others, that is 30m.

 

[ny32182]

Not that I am in favor of making excuses based on equipment, but the gun is a huge factor that is rarely taken into account in these discussions.

Shooting a group with a .22 dedicated target pistol, and doing the same with a service grade centerfire pistol with factory type ammo are VASTLY different levels of difficulty. Also there is a lot of variance in the accuracy of different pistols as well. The first time I picked up a CZ I was able to shoot groups much smaller at 15yd than I can with any of the plastic guns I've put 10's of thousands of rounds through. The reason for that is that the gun is more accurate.

But in general, I find internet pistol accuracy claims to be egregiously better than virtually anything I have ever seen in the real world. If you can pick up a stock Glock, XD, etc and shoot a 3" group at 25 yards every time, you are as good accuracy wise as national champion action shooters who shoot for a living. And once again, that feat with a .22 target pistol is not nearly so impressive.

As a USPSA production shooter on the brink of GM, I shoot groups frequently in practice. I shoot at a paster at 7 yards (don't always hit it), and/or a USPSA classic target at 50 yards (no D's on a good day). I also find that lighting plays a significant role as well. The front sight is wider than the whole target at 50, and depending on how the fiber is lit up, etc, the sight picture can vary a bit.

 

[JohnKSa]

The first time I picked up a CZ I was able to shoot groups much smaller at 15yd than I can with any of the plastic guns I've put 10's of thousands of rounds through. The reason for that is that the gun is more accurate.

With most of my stock full-sized pistols and decent ammo, I'm disappointed if I can't get five shot groups at 15 yards that measure under 2" when I'm doing my part and shooting for accuracy. Even my small DAO carry gun, a Kahr CW9 will shoot under 2.5" at 15 yards.

I've run into a few guns that won't shoot really tight groups at 25 yards, but it's much harder to find guns that won't make pleasing groups at 15 yards unless there's an obvious problem. Even the ones I consider to be inaccurate will still hold 3-4" groups at 15 yards with ammo they like.

That's NOT to say I do that every single time I shoot a group at those distances, or even every single time I try to shoot a group for pure accuracy/group size. There's a reason I don't save every single target I shoot at the range.

But if I shoot 3 or 4 targets for accuracy, I'd expect one or two of them to meet the standards above.

 

[Hangingrock]

The B-27 target its been awhile probably 25 or so years since I've utilized that target. That would have been in my revolver days and before that target the equivalent of the FBI-TRC target. I'm surprised that the B-27 is still relevant but I'm not all knowing on the subject either.

 

[MrBorland]

Shooting a group with a .22 dedicated target pistol, and doing the same with a service grade centerfire pistol with factory type ammo are VASTLY different levels of difficulty.

I agree and suggested (post 32) one needed "a reasonably accurate gun & ammo (capable of, say, an inch or better at 25 yards), a good trigger, and sights you can see" to print 3"@25 yards. While my revolvers are up to it, I'll admit I'd be hard-pressed to shoot 3"@25 with a service-grade striker-fired pistol.

 

[ny32182]

Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

 

[ratt_finkel]

Based on my experiences, the average shooter is lucky to do 3-5" groups at 15 yards. And I see plenty who cannot do that grouping at 3 yards. Very rarely do I see people shooting a standard pistol targets past 7 yards. And the results are usually pretty embarrassing.

 

[MrBorland]

Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

Yep & nope.

I just got it (a standard M&P40), then shot it for the 1st time Sunday by test-firing some handloads (the first of those, too) 15 minutes before the day's match. Got the holster & carriers from DK 5 minutes before the match. Surprisingly, the match went ok - time was slow-ish, but ok, all things considered.

Anyhow, I have no idea how this M&P and/or my handloads inherently shoot (I'll assume as well as any other striker fired gun), but I'll shoot a few 25 yard groups tomorrow or Friday just to see how we do together.

 

[mmissile]

I usually pratice at about 10yards, rapid/aimed fire, and shoot about 4-6 inches for a whole mag[10-16 rounds]

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

shooting off hand at 25 yards my goal is to have my group small enough that I can cover it with the palm of my hand, my wife does this much better than I.

 

[MrBorland]

Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

Anyhow, I have no idea how this M&P and/or my handloads inherently shoot (I'll assume as well as any other striker fired gun), but I'll shoot a few 25 yard groups tomorrow or Friday just to see how we do together.

I got out today and shot 4 groups, the 1st being a warm-up (not gonna show that one ). I used 50M smallbore targets (3.9" across the black) because that what I had. They work well at 25 yards, though, and offer a good precise aiming point (7 yard pasters and 50 yard A-zones aren't really good for that ). I shot 5 rounds unsupported per group at 25 yards (though I realized afterward I only shot 4 rounds on #2). The gun's a new-to-me bone-stock standard size M&P40. I shot my own reloads, loaded on my Dillon 650 progressive press, but they've not been optimized in any way. Just figured 3.2 Clays over a plated 180 ought to be a good place to start, so that's what I loaded up and shot. Haven't even chrono'd them. My guess is they're around PF 135k-ish.

Group #1: 5 rounds @ 2.46" (c-c)
Group #2: 4 rounds @ 2.43"
Group #3: 5 rounds @ 2.80"

Not claiming I can shoot 3" @ 25 (or better) every time, but given the conditions and circumstances, I'm satisfied a decent shooter with a "reasonably accurate" polymer service gun is capable of 3"@25. Just use an appropriate target and take your time.

 

[PabloJ]

My standard requirement is near center of dixie plate at 10m or less. I have seen high grade German .357 revolver that had factory test target. The 25m group with .38 Geco ammo was shocking one rugged hole about size US quarter. That was amazing.

 

[MrBorland]

I have seen high grade German .357 revolver that had factory test target. The 25m group with .38 Geco ammo was shocking one rugged hole about size US quarter. That was amazing.

IME, even a merely "good" revolver (e.g. S&W) can shoot under an inch (i.e. US quarter size) at 25 yards using a rest and quality ammo. It's just one of the qualities of a good revolver I enjoy.

 

[DIXIEDOG]

I used to shoot paper for groups but now I shoot 4" steel plates instead....as long as every shot hits the plate I'm happy so I guess I call 4" groups good.


I try not to get too hung up on itty bitty groups with handguns, I used to but found myself starting to get put out with a few that were decent but I just couldn't get tiny groups with....then I thought about it and couldn't figure out why I needed tighter groups. Now I shoot as quickly as possible to keep the plates spinning constantly.

 

[David E]

The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Easy to say, hard to do.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Easy to say, hard to do.

Very much so.

When you first start, you want to see the steel fall. Even when you get over that, you still want to hear the "ding" of the impact.

You have to really concentrate on moving your eyes as soon as you're broken the shot

 

[Sauer Grapes]

If your shooting 2.5-3'' groups at 50', your in the top 10% at my club! We have shooters at our club that can't hit the ground.....lol.

 

[Pete D.]

Group/score

Good group...not a good score.
A friend of mine shot this group one hand unsupported at 50 ft.
1911, iron sights.
Pete

 

[MrBorland]

The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Shooting good groups (the subject of this thread) is about (and only about) the fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control. The shooter gives themselves every opportunity to shoot a good group by removing all excuses (e.g. time constraints, sub-optimal target, score, etc.). No BS - it's just you, your gun and your fundamentals. Take all the time you need. If a shooter shoots good groups with fast splits, great. But if they find they simply can't shoot a decent group with all the time in the world, I'd say they've found a hole in their repertoire.

Good group...not a good score.

A good group and a good score ups the difficulty level considerably, lol. I've got a lot of respect for good bullseye shooters.

 

[HighExpert]

Group size is relative. I shoot Bullseye and a 3" group at fifty feet would make me cry. A three inch group at fifty yards wouldn't overly thrill me. It would equal Sharpshooter level work and I shoot in the low Master level. With a carry gun, full power ammo and limited time constraints, I would be very satisfied with 3" at 50 ft. Greater accuracy is a goal some work toward others want more speed with a little less accuracy. If you want to very accurate you need the more expensive firearms that are more accurate than you are in order to improve. There is nothing worse than missing and not knowing whether it was the gun/ammo or you. I was taught to work on calling every shot as to target impact before looking. It forces you pay attention to basics and saves lots of ammo. I tried some the action shooting as well as pins and don't do as well as others because I am just too hung up on being accurate. I don't shoot as fast as most, but I will more than likely hit what I am aiming at the first time. You seem to be off to good start. Decide on what makes you happy a do it. Everyone finds enjoyment in different disciplines. My wife says shooting or watching Bullseye is like watching paint dry. She goes through lots of ammo and her idea is "If you want to shoot 50yds, you should have brought your 10/22 not that silly handgun. Have fun.

 

[David E]

Shooting good groups (the subject of this thread) is about (and only about) the fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control. The shooter gives themselves every opportunity to shoot a good group by removing all excuses (e.g. time constraints, sub-optimal target, score, etc.). No BS - it's just you, your gun and your fundamentals. Take all the time you need. If a shooter shoots good groups with fast splits, great.

I didn't say not to take your time. I didn't mention splits at all, much less fast ones.

I DID say not to take one micro-second longer than necessary to make the shot. If everything is correct to take the shot at the 3 second mark, why not take it? Don't wait until the 10 second mark to take the shot that would hit in exactly the same place, had you taken the shot at the 3 second mark.

Or, if it takes you 9 seconds to align things just so, take the shot at 9 seconds, not 10