What is it about Soviet Rifles...

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Smoother bolt than an M39? Surely you gist, sir.

Higher capacity...yup. Enfield has that down pat.

But one need only use M39 sights to experience superiority. 10 rounds doesn't amount to a thing if the other chap has hit you first. I don't know about you, but a Mosin bolt is quite fast, and doesn't operate on the "cock on close" principle. If I didn't love my M/38 Swede mauser so much, I'd be tempted to modify it.

Easier to wield? Jungle Carbine maybe? How's about an M44!

Thank you for the history lesson, but alas, we are talking Soviet rifles vs the World. The superiority of the Finnish refurbs must take a back seat on this one.

P.s: I do love me a K31. Talk about fast and accurate!
To keep it all in a perspective: Leon Nagant was Belgian. He was the original contract designer who later had to give up some ground to the Tsar' own Captain Mosin. There was nothing peasant in the 1891 design. The bolt as a matter of fact is rather complex. The Russian Imperial armories could not make them fast enough for the Army during WW1.

Also it is worth remembering, Finland was part of the Russian Empire until the Bolsheviks cut it loose. The 1891 rifle was theirs too by birthright. The Finnish culture of excellence in manufacturing produced refurbs that were better than the originals. But they did not ditch the Mosin-Nagant entirely. Apparently they saw it as a solid development platform, for the time being.
 
Price. If Springfield 1903s were selling for $99 like the Mosin Nagants; and the M1 Garands were selling for $249 like the SKSs; and ARs were selling for $499 like AKs, then FAR fewer people would touch the Mosins, SKSs, or AKs. (Pre-panic prices, of course...)
My guess is that is why the majority of folks are buying them now. That combined with the availability and cost of the ammo to shoot them. I had no intention of buying anything Russian, but it happened. Now, during these times, most of my rounds going down range are 5.45x39 or 7.62x54r. That said, I have become a US M91 junkie!
 
To keep it all in a perspective: Leon Nagant was Belgian. He was the original contract designer who later had to give up some ground to the Tsar' own Captain Mosin. There was nothing peasant in the 1891 design. The bolt as a matter of fact is rather complex. The Russian Imperial armories could not make them fast enough for the Army during WW1.

Also it is worth remembering, Finland was part of the Russian Empire until the Bolsheviks cut it loose. The 1891 rifle was theirs too by birthright. The Finnish culture of excellence in manufacturing produced refurbs that were better than the originals. But they did not ditch the Mosin-Nagant entirely. Apparently they saw it as a solid development platform, for the time being.
All very good points.

Iirc, the Finns were double dealing, and had allegiances with the Germans as well.

Nagant didn't have a whole lot to do with the design, probably why you don't hear a lot of folks calling a 91/30 a "Nagant". I like the revolver, though.
 
All very good points.

Iirc, the Finns were double dealing, and had allegiances with the Germans as well.

Nagant didn't have a whole lot to do with the design, probably why you don't hear a lot of folks calling a 91/30 a "Nagant". I like the revolver, though.
Mustard
That is the version traditionally favored in Russia. Mosin, if you noticed, was a purebred homegrown, always an advantage there, under the tsar, and even more so under Stalin and his successors. Nagant, in fact, alleged bias and threatened to sue. (Some people here are wondering today, whether the AK should have been named Schmeisser) I am still waiting for the definitive history on the subject.
 
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Mustard
That is the version traditionally favored in Russia. Mosin, if you noticed, was a purebred homegrown, always an advantage there, under the tsar, and even more so under Stalin and his successors. Nagant, in fact, alleged bias and threatened to sue. (Some people here are wondering today, whether the AK should have been named Schmeisser) I am still waiting for the definitive history on the subject.
Magazine spring attachment is hardly evidence of a bias.

I'm doing my homework, but other than that, not seeing a whole lot of Leon in the Mosin.
 
Nagant's beef was that the high commission had voted for his design but was overruled by the commanding general. Sergey Mosin may have won the day. What I am saying is, the fact that the rifle was not nicknamed Nagant in Russia should not be mistaken for evidence in Mosin's favor. Those were the times when St Petersburg was renamed Petrograd to "russify" it.
 
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Each of these small arms designs has its strengths and its weaknesses when compared to the designs of its contemporaries. No question.

Mean, you don't have to like these designs. It's ok. You don't have to like the system which built them either... It's hard to be an advocate for slave labor at gulags. One can point the finger at Soviet "thievery" of German capital and talent at war's end, (where did I read about the Germans stealing all of that artwork from occupied France..., or the US "employing" German rocket scientists), trying to detract from the design or the qualities of these weapons of iron and wood.

Nonetheless, these rifles are pretty slick. Some are very accurate. Most have been through the grinder. For those who appreciate these firearms, they are enough.

:)
 
Many beautiful things come from Russia!

Many beautiful things come from Russia!
 

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Each of these small arms designs has its strengths and its weaknesses when compared to the designs of its contemporaries. No question.

Mean, you don't have to like these designs. It's ok. You don't have to like the system which built them either... It's hard to be an advocate for slave labor at gulags. One can point the finger at Soviet "thievery" of German capital and talent at war's end, (where did I read about the Germans stealing all of that artwork from occupied France..., or the US "employing" German rocket scientists), trying to detract from the design or the qualities of these weapons of iron and wood.

Nonetheless, these rifles are pretty slick. Some are very accurate. Most have been through the grinder. For those who appreciate these firearms, they are enough.

:)
I think you misunderstand my stance on Soviet rifles.

I am an advocate of the Mosin, and a staunch supporter of all things Kalashnikov.

To quote a quote of a quote of fellow member "caribou", who I think will agree with me in terms of the Finnish Mosin rifles: "Only accurate rifles are interesting".
 
I think you misunderstand my stance on Soviet rifles.

I am an advocate of the Mosin, and a staunch supporter of all things Kalashnikov.

To quote a quote of a quote of fellow member "caribou", who I think will agree with me in terms of the Finnish Mosin rifles: "Only accurate rifles are interesting".
Must be the same guy who said only knives that cut, airplanes that fly, and bourbon that smells bourbon are interesting.
Seriously though, the Mosins had to be accurate. Like other bolt action rifles, it's what they do. The Kalash was built for firepower. Then it gets demilled and neutered into a semi-auto, and people notice it's not a tack driver. A Mosin can fix that.
 
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Each of these small arms designs has its strengths and its weaknesses when compared to the designs of its contemporaries. No question.

Mean, you don't have to like these designs. It's ok. You don't have to like the system which built them either... It's hard to be an advocate for slave labor at gulags. One can point the finger at Soviet "thievery" of German capital and talent at war's end, (where did I read about the Germans stealing all of that artwork from occupied France..., or the US "employing" German rocket scientists), trying to detract from the design or the qualities of these weapons of iron and wood.

Nonetheless, these rifles are pretty slick. Some are very accurate. Most have been through the grinder. For those who appreciate these firearms, they are enough.

:)

I wasn't trying to imply that the plunder of Nazi technology and capital at the end of the war was a bad thing. To the victor go the spoils, and the Soviets had more to do with defeating the Third Reich than anybody else. I was only implying that it had a big hand in the design of later weapons such as the AK.

I guess you missed the little notice that the USSR made more SVT-40's then the US made of the "technologically superior" M1 Garand.

The Soviet and Russian philosophy in general is to concentrate technology where it will make the greatest impact. On the battlefield, the two pieces of equipment that gets you the most results are Tanks and Artillery. Soviet designs excelled in both. Rifles and small arms were not given as much emphasis because they weren't what was consistently getting the biggest results.

Plus, the AK-47 was the first mass issued assault rifle. It wasn't untill the 1960's that the US caught up and started issuing an analogous weapon. M14 is a good rifle, but its also little more then a product-improved M1 Garand, whose design specifications were driven by the Revolutionary War concept of the marksman turning the battle from long range versus the reality of the short range firefights where the side with the most volume wins.

Again, which is why the USSR also manufactured over 6 million PPSh-41 sub machine guns.

The SVT has never been respected for reliability or durability. A neat design, but nowhere near the rugged main battle rifle that the Garand was for the US. The Garand did have a few shortcomings, and most of them were fixed in the M14. Sure, its a heavier rifle than the AK. It also speaks with a lot more authority.

I believe that the title of first mass-issued assault rifle would go to the Sturmgewehr series of rifles. They made nearly half a million of them during WWII. Not really what you would call a limited production assault rifle, and it beat the AK into service by a long shot. The only reason the Germans didn't make more is because the war ended before they could (not to mention what the allied bombing campaign did to production before that). The AK may not have copied its internal design, but it certainly copied the layout and concept.

Don't even get me started on the "spray-and-pray" mentality. There's a reason why US Marines are universally feared in combat. A lot of it has to do with the combination of excellent rifles and fine marksmanship that have historically been utilized by the individual Marine. Just ask some of the Iraqi insurgents how well spraying large volumes of fire with their AKs in short-range firefights worked out for them...

Smoother bolt than an M39? Surely you gist, sir.

Higher capacity...yup. Enfield has that down pat.

But one need only use M39 sights to experience superiority. 10 rounds doesn't amount to a thing if the other chap has hit you first. I don't know about you, but a Mosin bolt is quite fast, and doesn't operate on the "cock on close" principle. If I didn't love my M/38 Swede mauser so much, I'd be tempted to modify it.

Easier to wield? Jungle Carbine maybe? How's about an M44!

Thank you for the history lesson, but alas, we are talking Soviet rifles vs the World. The superiority of the Finnish refurbs must take a back seat on this one.

P.s: I do love me a K31. Talk about fast and accurate!

The Mosin has decent sights for what they are, barrel mounted tangent sights. The Finns are even better, maybe the best of that design of sight. In my opinion, neither of them hold a candle to the receiver mounted aperture sights found on the 03A3, Garand, Model 1914/1917 Enfield, or Enfield No 4 series. They are faster to use, more accurate, and obscure much less of what you are shooting at. They also don't require crawling up on the rifle to adjust the range.

The Finns, just like their Swedish cousins, were very, very good at making accurate rifles. I think the Finn M39 rifles really are something, but they're still a Mosin at heart. Like the AK, it's a clunky and awkward weapon compared to its western contemporaries. The Mosins made for mediocre battle rifles and poor sporting rifles. Cock-on-opening or not, the bolt is smooth but awkward to operate, and nowhere near as fast as the Enfield. Compared to any of the Mausers, it's so-so, and I think the speed of either would be a toss-up based on operator skill. I have found that the Mauser design is much easier to work from the shoulder than the Mosin, at least for a relatively short guy.

Barrel length plays a large role in how handy a rifle is in combat. It also plays a big hand in reducing recoil. The Enfield, Springfield, and K98k Mauser were all designed with a 24-25" long barrel. I've found that due to this, they handle quite a bit better than the 91/30 (which used the same ridiculous 29" barrel length of most of the WWI era Mausers) in any kind of non-static use. I've also always thought that the Soviets went too far when they cut down the Mosin to make the M38/M44. A 20" barrel in that light of a rifle with that powerful of a cartridge makes for very punishing recoil. Maybe acceptable if you're only firing a box of ammo at the range, but I couldn't even imagine shooting and fighting with one all day long for months on end.

As has already been mentioned before, if they weren't so cheap, and they didn't shoot readily available and cheap ammo, Russian/Soviet rifles wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are with American shooters today. The Finns are the exception, and their price certainly reflects that.
 
I guess you missed the little notice that the USSR made more SVT-40's then the US made of the "technologically superior" M1 Garand.

Also, just where might one find this little notice? The numbers that I'm seeing show that the US made about 4 times as many Garands as the Soviets made SVT-38s and SVT/AVT-40s. Not to mention that our standing army was only a fraction of the size of the Soviet Army.
 
I wasn't trying to imply that the plunder of Nazi technology and capital at the end of the war was a bad thing. To the victor go the spoils, and the Soviets had more to do with defeating the Third Reich than anybody else. I was only implying that it had a big hand in the design of later weapons such as the AK.



The SVT has never been respected for reliability or durability. A neat design, but nowhere near the rugged main battle rifle that the Garand was for the US. The Garand did have a few shortcomings, and most of them were fixed in the M14. Sure, its a heavier rifle than the AK. It also speaks with a lot more authority.

I believe that the title of first mass-issued assault rifle would go to the Sturmgewehr series of rifles. They made nearly half a million of them during WWII. Not really what you would call a limited production assault rifle, and it beat the AK into service by a long shot. The only reason the Germans didn't make more is because the war ended before they could (not to mention what the allied bombing campaign did to production before that). The AK may not have copied its internal design, but it certainly copied the layout and concept.

Don't even get me started on the "spray-and-pray" mentality. There's a reason why US Marines are universally feared in combat. A lot of it has to do with the combination of excellent rifles and fine marksmanship that have historically been utilized by the individual Marine. Just ask some of the Iraqi insurgents how well spraying large volumes of fire with their AKs in short-range firefights worked out for them...



The Mosin has decent sights for what they are, barrel mounted tangent sights. The Finns are even better, maybe the best of that design of sight. In my opinion, neither of them hold a candle to the receiver mounted aperture sights found on the 03A3, Garand, Model 1914/1917 Enfield, or Enfield No 4 series. They are faster to use, more accurate, and obscure much less of what you are shooting at. They also don't require crawling up on the rifle to adjust the range.

The Finns, just like their Swedish cousins, were very, very good at making accurate rifles. I think the Finn M39 rifles really are something, but they're still a Mosin at heart. Like the AK, it's a clunky and awkward weapon compared to its western contemporaries. The Mosins made for mediocre battle rifles and poor sporting rifles. Cock-on-opening or not, the bolt is smooth but awkward to operate, and nowhere near as fast as the Enfield. Compared to any of the Mausers, it's so-so, and I think the speed of either would be a toss-up based on operator skill. I have found that the Mauser design is much easier to work from the shoulder than the Mosin, at least for a relatively short guy.

Barrel length plays a large role in how handy a rifle is in combat. It also plays a big hand in reducing recoil. The Enfield, Springfield, and K98k Mauser were all designed with a 24-25" long barrel. I've found that due to this, they handle quite a bit better than the 91/30 (which used the same ridiculous 29" barrel length of most of the WWI era Mausers) in any kind of non-static use. I've also always thought that the Soviets went too far when they cut down the Mosin to make the M38/M44. A 20" barrel in that light of a rifle with that powerful of a cartridge makes for very punishing recoil. Maybe acceptable if you're only firing a box of ammo at the range, but I couldn't even imagine shooting and fighting with one all day long for months on end.

As has already been mentioned before, if they weren't so cheap, and they didn't shoot readily available and cheap ammo, Russian/Soviet rifles wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are with American shooters today. The Finns are the exception, and their price certainly reflects that.
I'm seeing a lot of subjectivity here.

Other than the cheap part.

Which only proves that an industrialized Soviet Union could make "crappier weapons" fast, and in large numbers. Hence, a flooded modern market.

While I agree Mausers are finer rifles, you'll notice a deteriorated craftsmanship with later K98Ks during the war, mainly in the stocks and roughness of steelwork and machining. I hold the Swede Mauser in high regard, which was a fine gun from start to finish.

The Enfield...heavy as the Mosin, literally. I don't see that 4" more of barrel making the Russian gun more unwieldy. You've got "Mad Minute" training and ten rounds. That's where I've found the weapon to accel over the Mosin. But not the Finnish.
 
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meanmrmustard:

The Enfield #4 Mark 1 and 2 series must be as good a rifle as any MN, as these Enfields were the first to be built with rear aperture sights.
The LE ladder sight seems to be the best, compared to the dual 'flip'. I replaced a flip sight with a ladder on one of my #4s.

The 7.62x54R cartridge is more powerful than .303, but it seems to me that it is more difficult for anybody using the MN with normal iron sights to hit a fairly distant target.

I've only looked through the sights of the M-39, but are they somehow better than those on the typical 91/30 or MN 44, 38, 91/59 types?
 
meanmrmustard:

The Enfield #4 Mark 1 and 2 series must be as good a rifle as any MN, as these Enfields were the first to be built with rear aperture sights.
The LE ladder sight seems to be the best, compared to the dual 'flip'. I replaced a flip sight with a ladder on one of my #4s.

The 7.62x54R cartridge is more powerful than .303, but it seems to me that it is more difficult for anybody using the MN with normal iron sights to hit a fairly distant target.

I've only looked through the sights of the M-39, but are they somehow better than those on the typical 91/30 or MN 44, 38, 91/59 types?
I can't really agree that its necessarily more difficult to hit long range with a Mosin due to cartridge type, but sights do make the difference. Although, I've not had the experience of inability, nor hindrance. Just, not as quick?

The sights of the M39 are much superior to those you've listed. Which doesn't take a whole lot. The M28 sights being the basis, the M39 wears a shorter rear battle sight with more precise notch, and the tell-tale front dog ear with thinner post. While minuscule, it is different from other "Soviet" rifles in that its only 1" from the muzzle rather than the nominal 1-1/2". Not much, but its something.

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM39.htm
 
To keep it all in a perspective: Leon Nagant was Belgian. He was the original contract designer who later had to give up some ground to the Tsar' own Captain Mosin. There was nothing peasant in the 1891 design. The bolt as a matter of fact is rather complex. The Russian Imperial armories could not make them fast enough for the Army during WW1.

The bolt is less complex than a Mauser and is only made up of 7 parts. The Mosin has more than a passing relation to the Berdan II, which was an American design. But in Russia, they didn't even call it a Mosin all that much, they called it "Three Line Rifle." Mosin was responsible for the action and bolt. His first magazine was a butt-stock loading tube that was not as good as other rifles. If you look at drawings for Nagant's rifle, it was not the same rifle.

As to production problems In WWI, armories everywhere were not manufacturing fast enough. Springfield could not manufacturer 1903's fast enough So Remington and Winchester had to make M1917's (twice as many as 1903's), Remington also made Bertheirs for France, P14's for Britain, and Mosins for Russia, not to mention that Winchester was making M1895's for Russia while S&W and Colt Made revolvers for Britain (as did Garate and Trocoala). Spain also manufactured every kind of pocket auto for the parties involved - yet Russia had no problem manufacturing its own stocks of M1895 Nagant revolvers.


Also it is worth remembering, Finland was part of the Russian Empire until the Bolsheviks cut it loose.

The Bolsheviks did not cut Finland loose, Finland declared independence. The Bolsheviks allowed it to happen, but then supported an insurgency that became a civil war in the 1920's between White and Red Finns where thousands died.

The Mosin is a superb design that as a military design out-lasted the M98 Mauser as a military-issued arm. Granted, that was in sniper actions alone, but the Finns and Czechs issued Mosin-action snipers into the 1990's and 2000's (the Finns still have theirs in reserve). The Finnish M28/76 and Tkiv-85 sniper rifles (the latter remains in service) were built on Imperial Russian receivers and can accept any bolt ever made for the Mosin. The VZ-54/91 was essentially an updated M91/30 issued in 1991 and maintained in Czech arsenals until the second decade of the 21st century. These were issue rifles, not merely stored in crates like Yugo Mausers.

That is not to imply that the Mosin was some how the best action ever made, only to point out that it did the job, and did so well enough for armies to issue rifles based on it into the 21st century (making it a design that spanned parts of three centuries). The Finns could have easily have adopted some other design, but chose the Mosin in the 1980's for their sniper rifle. Ditto for the Czechs. While politics played roles (it always plays roles everywhere), the rifles were solid enough to justify that. Stalin might have preferred Tokarev as a designer, but even his favoritism could not keep the SVT-40 in production.
 
^^^To add to this post, which I could not have written better, I'll add this:

It is also popular belief that the Reds were only superior to other armies in size. I'll agree with this; however, thrusting a weapon into the hands of untrained millions a good army does not make.

Russia's invasion of Finland proves this: Farmers armed with modified weapons of those of their invader ran around for years in the snow slaughtering, starving, and driving out the enemy. In the hands of learned warriors, even a farm implement becomes deadly.
 
The Bolsheviks did not cut Finland loose, Finland declared independence. The Bolsheviks allowed it to happen, but then supported an insurgency that became a civil war in the 1920's between White and Red Finns where thousands died.

I appreciate your interest in the subject. Without saying, Finland was not expelled from the RSFSR. It declared independence. The timing was good, as the bolsheviks could not afford another civil war front right outside Petrograd. And they had to keep their word on the self determination. The Sovnarkom voted on it and decided to let it go, armed with the Marxist theory that a socialist revolution there was imminent.
 
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My interest in Finland was helped most by the Finnish Embassy in the US. I wrote them for some ready material and a giant box of hardbound books on early history, the Winter War, Mannerheim, and others arrived in response. I figure a book sent by the Finnish Embassy was probably going to tell it as accurately as it could be.
 
Yeah... an embassy is a government institution. They will give you "the official" approved version of information on any subject. Ask the German embassy for information about the late 1930s to early 1940s. Somethings will probably "not be mentioned much" so to speak.
 
The Finns ensured their lasting independence by instituting a quiet self-sensorship in the press against publishing anything that might anger the USSR. They always hated to discuss that.

I wonder if anyone has information on whether the Soviet Union supplied Finland with AK components, or the Valmets were entirely Suomi.
 
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No, Ink, they sent a number of books, including one written in the Soviet Union that really trashed the Civil Guard and blamed Finland for the Winter War. Unless you know what books I received, you really can't make any kind of conclusion.
 
meanmrmustard:
Good points.
At least the MN sights seem much better than most Mauser sights.
And if somebody can shoot a Russian MN as well as an Enfield #4, that's some very developed skill.

Ash:
There was a Finnish ocean liner parked on a Miss. River levee at Baton Rouge LA after Katrina. The blue Finnish flag emblem was on it.
Supposedly it provided rooms for people with no home. Seem to remember that it was for displaced college students.
Whether that was initiated by a Finnish corporation, or by the Finnish Embassy (or both), it was nice to see while on a jog from a hotel.

I have no idea whether any other foreign cruise lines or Naval Forces might have provided ships for hurricane refugees.
 
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I don't know my brothers... but tomorrow I go to the slaughter of countless clay pigeons armed with my trusty Mosin Nagant and Tokarev rifle.

They will never see what's coming...

(Of course, with my declining eyesight, I may never see them either!)
 
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