What is powder accuracy

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It is well known, a firearm HAS a preference for bullet weight and style.

It is a simple fact that a firearm will have differing results with different combinations. It would be insane to think a firearm would shoot every load you could find identically. Of course there is going to be a best and worst with all others in between.

As soon as you don’t make something (anything) identical, there will be a better and worse, more than likely in a number of categories.
 
Since this conversation swerved into topic of barrels, I would share this link to FAQ from Bartlein barrels. A healthy dose of reality.

https://www.bartleinbarrels.com/barrel-faq

If even half of what they say is true, any expectation that I am going to find an accurate load........one that duplicates what they offer........from my off the rack factory Rem 700........what probably has a button cut barrel............is a pipe dream. Pure coincidence if I did.

Not going to win any tractor pulls with stock tractor.......or Daytona 500 with a stock Chevy either.
 
Since this conversation swerved into topic of barrels, I would share this link to FAQ from Bartlein barrels. A healthy dose of reality.

https://www.bartleinbarrels.com/barrel-faq

If even half of what they say is true, any expectation that I am going to find an accurate load........one that duplicates what they offer........from my off the rack factory Rem 700........what probably has a button cut barrel............is a pipe dream. Pure coincidence if I did.

Not going to win any tractor pulls with stock tractor.......or Daytona 500 with a stock Chevy either.
A purpose built match rifle and a Nascar is about a good comparison to a stock Comero at the Daytona 500. It's more than just a barrel.
 
It's not an accurate statement. If one describes this rifle with this powder measured to a specific amount in the tenth of grains, this bullet, and this primer delivering THIS accuracy off the bench, then I get it.

If a competition guy loads to the hundredths of grains past the decimal, I get that, although tenths works for my standards.
 
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To Coal CrackerA1, thanks for showing us the targets. If we count only the hole in hole holes or holes touching, 2400 was the best group, followed by R D, Unique and 4198. I couldn't tell if the hole in hole holes (or holes touching) were your first two shots or not. For me 3 shots strings are enough before setting the firearm (rifle for me) aside to let it cool down. To those who mentioned the trial-and-error method of reloading, yes, it is time consuming (and expensive these day with the cost of components) even with the help of reloading manuals, but there is not much choice. I was fortunate that BLC-2 and IMR 4895 both worked equally well in my .222 Mag (Rem 700) (factory ammo did not so the only answer was reloading). By using data from the Lyman Reloading Handbook (44th and 46th edition) I found that IMR 4895 worked best for a friend's .22-250 (Rem 788). IMR 3031 worked best in my .270 (Rem 700) and my .300 Savage (Model 99). IMR 4350 worked best in my .338 Win Mag (Ruger 77 MKII). Sierra bullets used for all except the .300 Savage for which I used Speer. For factory ammo, .270 Winchester 130 grain bullets work best, .338 Win Mag Remington 200 grain worked best (that was after trying two Winchester loads-230 grain and 250 grain in black boxes-shot them up and used the cases for reloads). The point is that not all factory loads or reloads work best in any given firearm. We have to find out at the range what works best in our firearm-trial and error. We may or may not be scientists or engineers by education or by trade, but as reloaders (and experimenters) we become both (whether we want to or not). :) Best to all and thanks to all for making this forum what it is.
 
If a competition guy loads to the hundredths of grains past the decimal, I get that, although tenths works for my standards.

To be fair, I’m not aware of any type of competition where measuring to the nearest 1/100th of a grain (we really only get to +/-0.015grn, not 0.010) is pertinent. Many of us DO load to that precision, simply because the fastest methods of dispensing also offer that level of precision, but most competitors are savvy enough to find a node which offers very broad forgiveness, meaning they don’t have to load to extreme precision.

Recall, most world records for smallest groups have been set by THROWN charges, which typically ends up (I’d say unilaterally ends up, based on seeing dozens of these tests, including my own) with greater than +/-0.1grn variability.

Since this conversation swerved into topic of barrels, I would share this link to FAQ from Bartlein barrels. A healthy dose of reality.

https://www.bartleinbarrels.com/barrel-faq

If even half of what they say is true, any expectation that I am going to find an accurate load........one that duplicates what they offer........from my off the rack factory Rem 700........what probably has a button cut barrel............is a pipe dream. Pure coincidence if I did.

Not going to win any tractor pulls with stock tractor.......or Daytona 500 with a stock Chevy either.

The same principles apply to hammer forged, push button, pull button, and cut rifled barrels - load development follows the same rules. Maybe it’s fair to say we can expect more from cut rifled, custom barrels which cost more - just for the blank - than a complete factory rifle, but it’s not really apt to denigrate the potential of even factory rifles to deliver small groups. The difference will usually be ~1/4-1/2moa vs. ~1/2-3/4moa, which is typically refined beyond the observable limit of most shooters in the conditions and positions they shoot.

Most Rem 700’s are also hammer forged, rather than push/pull button, and to my knowledge, none have ever been sold with cut rifled barrels. And can still deliver small groups.
 
The powders mentioned in the OP are pistol powders. The factors that affect accuracy have different meanings than those for rifle cartridges.

Accuracy of the equipment comes down to combustion, drag, and barrel harmonics, unless there is some kind of malfunction, mismatch or flaw that is damaging the results.

First we need consistency in the combustion. We need consistency in the combustion chamber (the brass and bullet seat depth), consistency in the ignition (primer), consistency in the charge energy (powder mass, burn rate, progressivity etc.), and consistency in the pressure/time curve (neck tension, distance to lands, start pressure etc.) This is where the "powder accuracy" makes a difference.

The other factors are the barrel harmonics or how consistently the barrel whips during ejection of the bullet, and then the external ballistics of the bullets or how consistently they stabilize, fly and slow down.

Getting back to combustion, because that's what "powder accuracy" affects, a variation of 25 fps can make a difference at some range for a rifle. At 500 yards, it could be an inch or two depending on velocity and ballistic coefficient. For handguns at 25 yards, it's meaningless. The difference would be less than a tenth of an inch. So unless we're shooting handguns at long ranges in lieu of a rifle, we're not doing ladders and looking for nodes to try to bring velocity SD down to tiny figures.

When many people talk about the accuracy of various handgun powders in their loads, it's just meaningless chatter. Ask them, and the chances are they loaded up some rounds with various powders using a Lee powder measure and shot them off hand and picked their best group as the "most accurate powder."

To seriously investigate the accuracy of handgun cartridges, a Ransom Rest is a pre-requisite. A person may be a good shot, but nobody can shoot consistently for long enough to evaluate many rounds.

Nevertheless, even without a rest, a chronograph can be helpful in finding problems like a primer that isn't initiating a compressed load of ball powder consistently, position-sensitive powders in large cases, powders burning inconsistently due to insufficient pressure and so on.

Various loads are going to have different shapes to the pressure/time curve and this result in variations in the performance of powder and bullet combinations. For example, one load might cause a bullet to obturate and deliver consistent velocity and stabilization. Another load might cause a bullet to fail to obturate, gas blows past it, it fouls the barrel and consistency falls apart. From my experience, consistency from cast and plated bullets can be very high, but it is often more difficult to achieve than with jacketed bullets.

When I develop a handgun load, I am looking for signs of problems. If the SD is 100 fps, there is something wrong. Is an SD of 11 fps a more accurate load than 38 fps? Not in any practical sense, at least not as a result of the velocity devitation or spread.

It's not unusual for a load of powder in a handgun cartridge to continue burning after the bullet base has exited the muzzle. If combustion had to complete before the bullet exit, then we would be missing the opportunity to continue building pressure behind the bullet all the way down the barrel. We use a larger mass of slower burning powders to keep the fire going as the bullet is near the exit. We can use progressive burn rate powders so they start burning faster and producing the greatest amount of gas towards the end of the bullet's travel in the barrel when there is the most room for all that gas to expand. The result is that a substantial portion of combustion occurs after bullet exit. This doesn't happen so much in long-barreled rifles as it does in handgun barrels. The smaller the portion of combustion completing before bullet exit, the less consistent combustion will be. The larger the portion of combustion occuring after bullet exit, the bigger the difference will be in the inevitable variations. This is why powders like H110 or Lil'Gun will never be as consistent as Clays, Red Dot, Bullseye, HP-38 or Titegroup in short barrels.

Most of the accuracy that results from shooting a handgun comes from the shooter. If we were to use a Ransom Rest to take the shooter out of the equation, the gun is most likely going to cause greater variations in the point of impact than the ammo, particularly if we're evaluating cheap standard production automatics with jiggling barrels and loose tolerances. That is unless we're also shooting cheap bullets. Ammo variations can be very significant if there are glaring problems such as primers mismatched to the load, bullets that are badly inconsistent or incompatible with the pressures and velocities being developed, or badly chosen charge masses for a given powder. If the loads are good loads, the differences in accuracy from a good load made from one powder to a good load made with a different powder is going to be hard to discern with rigorous testing. At best, I would expect to see that fast powders would show more consistency than slow burning magnum powders shot out of barrels that are much too short for them to produce consistent results before bullet exit. Those kind of magnum loads can still be very accurate for practical purposes, but wouldn't be my choice if we're counting tenths of an inch in group size.
 
The powders mentioned in the OP are pistol powders. The factors that affect accuracy have different meanings than those for rifle cartridges.

Accuracy of the equipment comes down to combustion, drag, and barrel harmonics, unless there is some kind of malfunction, mismatch or flaw that is damaging the results.

First we need consistency in the combustion. We need consistency in the combustion chamber (the brass and bullet seat depth), consistency in the ignition (primer), consistency in the charge energy (powder mass, burn rate, progressivity etc.), and consistency in the pressure/time curve (neck tension, distance to lands, start pressure etc.) This is where the "powder accuracy" makes a difference.

The other factors are the barrel harmonics or how consistently the barrel whips during ejection of the bullet, and then the external ballistics of the bullets or how consistently they stabilize, fly and slow down.

Getting back to combustion, because that's what "powder accuracy" affects, a variation of 25 fps can make a difference at some range for a rifle. At 500 yards, it could be an inch or two depending on velocity and ballistic coefficient. For handguns at 25 yards, it's meaningless. The difference would be less than a tenth of an inch. So unless we're shooting handguns at long ranges in lieu of a rifle, we're not doing ladders and looking for nodes to try to bring velocity SD down to tiny figures.

When many people talk about the accuracy of various handgun powders in their loads, it's just meaningless chatter. Ask them, and the chances are they loaded up some rounds with various powders using a Lee powder measure and shot them off hand and picked their best group as the "most accurate powder."

To seriously investigate the accuracy of handgun cartridges, a Ransom Rest is a pre-requisite. A person may be a good shot, but nobody can shoot consistently for long enough to evaluate many rounds.

Nevertheless, even without a rest, a chronograph can be helpful in finding problems like a primer that isn't initiating a compressed load of ball powder consistently, position-sensitive powders in large cases, powders burning inconsistently due to insufficient pressure and so on.

Various loads are going to have different shapes to the pressure/time curve and this result in variations in the performance of powder and bullet combinations. For example, one load might cause a bullet to obturate and deliver consistent velocity and stabilization. Another load might cause a bullet to fail to obturate, gas blows past it, it fouls the barrel and consistency falls apart. From my experience, consistency from cast and plated bullets can be very high, but it is often more difficult to achieve than with jacketed bullets.

When I develop a handgun load, I am looking for signs of problems. If the SD is 100 fps, there is something wrong. Is an SD of 11 fps a more accurate load than 38 fps? Not in any practical sense, at least not as a result of the velocity devitation or spread.

It's not unusual for a load of powder in a handgun cartridge to continue burning after the bullet base has exited the muzzle. If combustion had to complete before the bullet exit, then we would be missing the opportunity to continue building pressure behind the bullet all the way down the barrel. We use a larger mass of slower burning powders to keep the fire going as the bullet is near the exit. We can use progressive burn rate powders so they start burning faster and producing the greatest amount of gas towards the end of the bullet's travel in the barrel when there is the most room for all that gas to expand. The result is that a substantial portion of combustion occurs after bullet exit. This doesn't happen so much in long-barreled rifles as it does in handgun barrels. The smaller the portion of combustion completing before bullet exit, the less consistent combustion will be. The larger the portion of combustion occuring after bullet exit, the bigger the difference will be in the inevitable variations. This is why powders like H110 or Lil'Gun will never be as consistent as Clays, Red Dot, Bullseye, HP-38 or Titegroup in short barrels.

Most of the accuracy that results from shooting a handgun comes from the shooter. If we were to use a Ransom Rest to take the shooter out of the equation, the gun is most likely going to cause greater variations in the point of impact than the ammo, particularly if we're evaluating cheap standard production automatics with jiggling barrels and loose tolerances. That is unless we're also shooting cheap bullets. Ammo variations can be very significant if there are glaring problems such as primers mismatched to the load, bullets that are badly inconsistent or incompatible with the pressures and velocities being developed, or badly chosen charge masses for a given powder. If the loads are good loads, the differences in accuracy from a good load made from one powder to a good load made with a different powder is going to be hard to discern with rigorous testing. At best, I would expect to see that fast powders would show more consistency than slow burning magnum powders shot out of barrels that are much too short for them to produce consistent results before bullet exit. Those kind of magnum loads can still be very accurate for practical purposes, but wouldn't be my choice if we're counting tenths of an inch in group size.
With new measuring techniques we get to see a pile of new data never seen or known before. I'm curious if single power pulse powders end up more accurate than double or more pulse powders.... the old copper crush measuring didn't have a chance to see or log those events.
 
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To be fair, I’m not aware of any type of competition where measuring to the nearest 1/100th of a grain (we really only get to +/-0.015grn, not 0.010) is pertinent. Many of us DO load to that precision, simply because the fastest methods of dispensing also offer that level of precision, but most competitors are savvy enough to find a node which offers very broad forgiveness, meaning they don’t have to load to extreme precision.

Recall, most world records for smallest groups have been set by THROWN charges, which typically ends up (I’d say unilaterally ends up, based on seeing dozens of these tests, including my own) with greater than +/-0.1grn variability.



The same principles apply to hammer forged, push button, pull button, and cut rifled barrels - load development follows the same rules. Maybe it’s fair to say we can expect more from cut rifled, custom barrels which cost more - just for the blank - than a complete factory rifle, but it’s not really apt to denigrate the potential of even factory rifles to deliver small groups. The difference will usually be ~1/4-1/2moa vs. ~1/2-3/4moa, which is typically refined beyond the observable limit of most shooters in the conditions and positions they shoot.

Most Rem 700’s are also hammer forged, rather than push/pull button, and to my knowledge, none have ever been sold with cut rifled barrels. And can still deliver small groups.
Very few of those short range guys are throwing charges any more, most have moved on to chargemaster lites or FX120 I, “monkey see monkey do” Even though the SR guys shoot the smallest groups we have to put it in perspective that it’s point blank shooting and they can see the target and also have a sighter target they can dump a round anytime, I would submit the long range guys are actually shooting a much tougher foremat with world record 5 shots slightly over one inch at 1 k being the benchmark.
 
Is it just me or is your thread is evolving from informative to synonym’s

I admit deviation and tried to get back to the lane of travel.

Forgive my focus into a derailment - I simply abhor the common theme that “well ______ might matter for benchrest guys, but factory rifles don’t shoot well enough for it to matter.” I’ve observed the opposite - where custom barrels will shoot ridiculously small with almost anything you feed it, while factory barrels do tend to be more difficult to coax into cooperation. So I don’t have much tolerance when I see that BS getting booted around.

I do challenge the premise that a rifle will only shoot well with one combination - I’ve heard it over and over, but have never seen it defensibly proven. I’ve seen rifles which simply don’t shoot, and I’ve seen shooters which can’t shoot, and loaders who can’t load, but most often when someone says a rifle only likes one bullet and powder, it’s simply the last thing they tried because it shot better than whatever else they used - kinda like always finding your keys in the last place you look…

And if anyone hasn’t noticed, I speak in metaphor as my native tongue.
 
I agree, match barrels and bullets rarely shoot "big", but we can still find combinations that shoot better than others, and that's usually powder choice/tweaking after determining our bullet of choice.

Some people wear out barrels trying to make a poor one shoot bug holes because the internet tells them that magic one in a hundred magic combination will suddenly make a 2" gun a tack driver.
 
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