What is the most effective guard dog?

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+1 on Cosmoline's comments. Get a European-bred shepherd. A little costly but worth it in the long run. Although there are plenty of acceptable AKC dogs of these breeds, they are in the minority here in the US. If you're serious, get the real deal and find a reputable trainer, not just a standard obedience school. If you're ultra-serious about an honest-to-God trained guard dog, expect to pay $500-1,000 (or more) for a pup and several thousand for professional training.

If you just want an alarm system, answer a "free puppies" ad.

Honestly, though, unless you're really a "dog person", it's not worth the effort to go on the high end. A well-trained dog from a good bloodline is a wonder but you can't treat them like a normal mutt.
 
The AKC? I think the term "Notorious and Abominable Crime Against Nature" was intended to refer to them. They have ruined innumerable perfectly good breeds of dog in the name of "standards" and "conformation". Not, conspicuously, "health", "intelligence" or "ability to work". Every time they've been called on this they respond "Oh, we're just a registry, not a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval." Yet they come out with esthetic standards that are harmful to a dog's life and countenance line breeding to such a degree that the family trees have no branches.

When my father was in college his fraternity bought an Irish Setter. Why? They were smart, calm, healthy dogs that were easy to care for. After fifty years of the tender mercies of the AKC the breed is sickly, skittish, exciteable and dumber than a box of dirt. Rampant hip dysplasia in Shepherds to get that sloped look. Dobermans that are narrow between the eyes literally and figuratively. Dalmatians that almost universally go deaf. The closing of stud books so that one can't even get a touch of genetic diversity and heterozygocity from the parent stocks. Bulldogs and certain terriers that can not reproduce on their own because the demands of the AKC's standards dictate heads too big to fit through the birth canal.

When I learned some years back that the AKC had just "recognized" the Aussie Shepherd and the Heelers I wept real tears of sorrow for the coming destruction of those wonderful dogs.

I could go on. It's abhorrent. You might not get quite as much predictability in a mixed breed. But you have an odds on better chance of a healthy animal which doesn't suffer from horseflies buzzing around in its skull. :fire:
 
Where the wild things are...

This is a true Tibetan Mastiff. Can you imagine one of these coming after you?

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For more good photos and some interesting history on this breed, go to:

www.pets4you.com/pages/kesangcamp.html
 
We have a 3 layer animal alert system.

Layer 1: The coyote. Acutually a Coydog, 1/2 Aussie Shepard, 1/2 Coyote. Borderline neurotic, and lets you know something/someone is there. Downside, she barks at me, and the cat.

Layer 2: Chocloate Lab. Big, Brown and not too smart. But, he filters out the Coyotes signals. If he barks, in his deep HellHound-esque bark, you better pay attention.

Layer 3: EVIL CAT!. EVIL CAT! (yes, that is her name) is a 3 pound Bluepoint Himalayan. She is EVIL. She sit on the top of the fridge, and jumps on peoples heads. Without warning.
 
No dog, and I mean NO dog, under 100 lbs is going to be a match for an enraged 300 lb schizophrenic or meth-head.

I've been a helper enough to know just how wrong that comment is. A 60 lb. malinois can rip the head off a 300 pound man, literally. Though they are usually trained to destroy his forearms and hands before the officers get there. Above all else, they can be trained to stop or to REFRAIN from attacking under given conditions. That's a heck of a lot tougher to do than training them to bite. Try outing one of your fighting dogs when he's got human blood in his mouth, but bring some heavy armor for your hands and forearms. The bite strength difference between a 200 lb. dog and a 75 lb. dog isn't enough to make a difference. Either can kill you many times over, and the light one can leap up and nail you directly without having to do a sucker bite an knock you down first.
 
Gotta go +1 with Cosmoline again, here. A human's physiology isn't tough enough to matter against the bite strength and such of a dog in the size range mentioned. If you want to talk hunting lions or something like that then, yeah, you go to the huge exotics but I've seen a 40 lb blue heeler take a leap and knock a large man over and keep him down.
 
I'm not concerned with the jaw strength of the larger dogs. You are correct, that is not much of an issue. If it were, then the pit bull would have no disadvantage over the larger molosser breeds. Not many pitbulls are used for guard dog duty. Just a fact.

However, a smaller dog does not have the lunging (ballistic) strength or grappling (torque) strength of the larger breeds. These two attributes-- based largely on mass-- are very important.

Think about it-- an 88 lb GSD jumping on your bones, or a 180 lb Tosa. What would be more effective?

Or a 80 lb Malinois trying to rip your arm off through body torque, or a 160 lb Fila? What would be more effective?

Simple physics. That's all it is.
 
The reason certain breeds of dogs, such as GSD and Malinois, are so popular is because of their utter trainability and intelligence.

A two-legged, 300 lb animal (mentally imbalanced at time of attack) is going to have a much better chance of victory over its attacker (4 legged animal) if the attacker is smaller. I'm not saying the two-legged animal would come away unscathed, but a smaller dog would not likely survive such an encounter, because of its smaller mass.
 
Jeff, they don't have to rip your arm off. They're trained to break the bones in it, rendering it usless. If you need them to be more lethal, you can train them to make killing bites on command. There's simply no need for the additional size, and you're giving up a lot by going with a fighting dog who isn't bred to take minute and complex orders from his owner. How many of the dogs you mention can earn their schutzhund titles? How many can do a bark and hold or stop short after a fifty yard dash against a target and NOT attack?

If you really want more size, a quality working line Rott is an option, though they're getting difficult to find due to a lot of insane breeding by boneheads trying to make, you guessed it, FIGHTING DOGS out of them for back yard dog fights and because assorted boneheads keep trying to make them bigger. The fighting dogs you mention, used as a service dog, are an open invitation to a law suit or criminal charges. You will never see one in a professional capacity, even as a modern military dog. Cortez and his boys would use enormous mastiff breeds like the Presa Canarios as a tool of terror. They were simply unleashed on the villages to kill anything that moved. Men, women, children, livestock. I'm not saying they're no good as pets for prepared owners, but to use one for real life protection work is a very very dangerous notion. They should never be allowed to taste manflesh, or very bad things can happen.

but a smaller dog would not likely survive such an encounter, because of its smaller mas

Absolute hogwash. Unless the human has a knife or firearm and gets lucky, the dog will have his hind end. Thousands upon thousands of criminals have thought as you do, that they were strong enough to beat up a "little" malinois or GSD bitch. WRONG. The bites aren't like play bites, they're like getting shot, with over 200 ft. lbs. of force in each bite plus the damage of the teeth. You're stunned, your bones break, and your instinct to flee the jaws takes over. They don't walk up and try to bite you, they fly at you faster than human reflexes can respond, slamming into you in whatever manner they've been trained.

What's the 300 lb. goblin going to do if after five seconds HIS HANDS AND FOREARMS ARE USELESS AND BLEEDING PULP? And believe me it can happen even faster than that. Each time he tries to strike out, his hand is intercepted by the razors long before doing any damage to the dog.

Hold out your left arm, then smack your wrist with your right hand, open palm, as hard as you can five times in quick order. Then imagine that happening with ten times the amount of force you just applied, PLUS an array of cutting and bone breaking teeth. That will give you some idea. These dogs can break you down like lawn furniture. They understand joints and can leap high enough to disable any of them--including the back of your neck. Indeed in ringsport they routinely jump barriers higher than a man's head.

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Tellner, I'm with you. For all the grief we hear about animal abuse, how come so few people recognize the harm done to dogs through harmfully selective breeding?

My girlfriend of 4 years has a family who insists on purchasing only reputable purebred dogs, at top dollar. I cringe every 6 months when they simply MUST get a new dog because it is inevitably a skittish and neurotic wonder breed. Coincedentally, all their dogs have died before their time of an illness or defect pecuiliar to their breed, and in a few cases they have taken the dogs to a shelter because they did not like how the dogs got along, even though they were behaving typically for their breed.

I think we can apply the same advice to choosing dogs that we might give to choosing a gun. Is it dependable? Is it of adequate size? Are you trained in controlling it? Unlike firearms, you can actually use dogs as a deterrent without "brandishing" them or needing a license to walk beside them.
 
Cosmoline,

I get the impression you have never seen what a human being can do when it is out of its mind. Scary, scary stuff. Take a large and very powerful male human being, say 280-300 lbs, make him psychotic or under the influence of meth, PCP, crack, etc. You have never seen pictures or videos, or read news accounts, of several officers trying to subdue an enraged detainee? Batons, pepper spray, severe beatings, sometimes tasering, don't always work.

I'm not saying the smaller breeds are ineffective. I'm just saying there is such a thing as physics and common sense. A 180 lb dog is going to hit a bad guy harder (assuming same running speed) than a GSD or Malinois. A 180lb dog is going to take less damage from the bad guy's defensive blows (whether they be grappling or striking blows) than a smaller breed.

You have no idea what a large, powerful, and psychotic human is capable of when it is being savagely attacked by another animal. Especially a much smaller animal. I'm sorry to say something like that. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it's just by making those statements, you seem unaware of the capabilities of a powerful man with an irrational mind.
 
I've lived in Spenard and The Butte, which makes me something of an expert on large crazed individuals. Further more I've seen K-9 units in action. Those "little" dogs have no problem taking out meth heads, crack heads and assorted psychos of any size. They do it day in, day out.

There's a world of difference between me trying to restrain a huge guy out of his mind and a trained service dog doing it. Have you ever been a helper? Have you worked with service dogs? You seem to be fixated on the size of the dog, like a lot of Americans who keep trying to make them bigger. That extra size just slows them down, it adds nothing to their ability to take down human targets. The size might be helpful in a STAGED DOG FIGHT, but those are both immoral and illegal.

assuming same running speed

Well that's wrong, too. Working line GSDs and Malinois are some of the fastest sprinters on the planet, able to hit 40 MPH in a few seconds. They then FLY through air and land with a savage aimed bite to whatever portion of anatomy they've been trained to hit.

Bottom line. If you want a protection dog, get a working line protection dog. Don't get a medieval war dog or a fighting dog.
 
Here's another thing to think about.

The glandular giants of the dog world, the ones many here recommend over all others, are big. That means more hip and joint problems and generally a much shorter working life. My older GSD is almost eleven and going strong, albeit a little stiffer. A Mastiff, Great Dane, Rott or Irish Wolfhound (possibly the most beautiful of dogs) won't last nearly as long.

A dog isn't just a self-propelled weapon. It's a living creature that requires care and will have health problems. A good owner, or even one who just wants it to bond to him and obey him, will take this into account.

Besides, my dogs will defend me because we are Pack. I'm enough Pack with them that I'm not going to stand there and watch the dog do all the fighting and take all the risks. I'm going to be there with fist, sword or pistol. Papillon and Sev (our dogs) don't have to be Superdog, they just have to be good enough to tip the scales decisively in my favor when added to my capabilities.

Cosmoline, great picture of the GSD clearing the wall. Our older dog didn't tet her name because she's like a butterfly. She got it because she was an escape artist from day one. She was named after the guy who escaped from Devil's Island ;) We were thinking of fencing the backyard and then found out that we would have to have a fence taller the eight feet, because she could get over one of those.
 
My older GSD is almost eleven and going strong,

That's good. Enjoy him (her) as long as you can, Todd. My family's GSD had to be put down at 11 yrs old. Not a day goes by (since Oct 1998) where I don't think about my buddy Beau. Awesome dog, although he was pretty neurotic and had a few health problems, including the hip dysplasia that eventually did him in. Despite his health issues, he was a physically striking specimen. Around 100 lbs and a nice pattern of black and tan. Good looking and imposing dog.

Cosmoline, it certainly sounds like you have plenty of experience in these matters. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Well-trained GSDs and Malinois, and others like them, are definitely well-rounded attacking machines. But they do NOT execute perfectly all the time. A powerful blow to the head or a desperate and vicious grapple intended to break one of the legs, from a crazed and desperate and powerful man, would likely end the fight. And those are defensive blows better absorbed by large molosser breeds with larger and denser skeletal structures.
 
Why hasn't the Portugese black tongued ankle biter been mentioned?

Huh? The black-tongued version of that breed has been obsolete for 75 yrs or longer. The Portuguese grey balls ankle biter is the modern version. And from what I've heard, they are not to be trifled with.
 
To add something to what Cosmoline said about the goblin being a lot less scary hamstrung or with no hands...

If sixty pounds, heck if thirty pounds of angry dog is hanging off your throat or scrotum your attitude (and blood pressure) will adjust pretty quickly :eek:

Should I tell the Tale of the Welsh Corgi and the Two Cossacks? It's a good 'un :)
 
Get What Suits You

From all the posts I figure there are many dog breeds to fit one's needs. My best fit was an Akita. He fit in with our family when our kids were toddlers and loved and watched over them until they were teenagers. He wasn't a high activity dog (like our JRTs), but got along with everybody, as long as it was cool with his family. He traveled with us and slept at the foot of our bed and was the Head Of Security til the day he died at 13 years of age. I can not disparage the breed very much. They do shed alot. The trade-off was a no-brainer as far as what he provided in the way of peace of mind..
 
How big are Akitas? I told SgtStevo that we took care of a German Shepard for a week and now I don't want anything that big. She's a great dog but drools everywhere and stunk the place up (that "dog" smell) so I'm gunning for something smaller like a Belgian Malinois.
 
Want a dog? Go to your local pound.

Pick a healthy-looking bright-eyed puppy with a beefy build, good-sized feet, and lively attitude - one that looks like he's got a good mix of Sheppard and/or Lab in him. There are a million of them out there, and the vast majority are smart dogs that will be intensely loyal to you and your family, without giving you the psychological and physical problems that come with the current crop of "purebreds".

The best dog to defend your home and family is a smart, loyal mutt that's protecting his home and his family.
 
The only problem I've seen with Akitas is that they often don't socialize well with other dogs. If you are going to be a multi-dog family or take them places that could be an issue.
 
My Akita was 120-130 lbs and stood around 30" at the shoulder. Bigger than your average German Shepherd. Seems like all dog breeds are getting bigger-100 lb Labs aren't uncommon these days. Had to toss this in- I'm not sure my kids ever realized that he was more than the world's biggest teddy bear:
 

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pound dogs are great for pets. But very few are true protection canidates. we screen every dog we train. And most wont make it.

But for just awatch dog, most will do. If you want a trained man stopper. This is a different story.

Check out comments and photos in our website. you can see a real dog kick my butt. I have been training protection dogs for over twenty years and not many have thrown me like this. My dog is Max, on the training page. He can play in a school yard one minute. And tear you appart on cammand the next. this is what a [protection] is. Not a Sh1-2-3 or whatever. But a man stopping shredder. Our trained dogs are many thousands to buy. But worth it.

If you dont wnat aprotection dog, adopt I have good mutt I found on the side of the road at Benning. She is priceless.
 
One of the problems with trained protection dogs is the degree of attention and control they require. You might have the most mature, well-trained five year old kid in the world. But you'll have to be very careful and watch him like a hawk if you give him a chainsaw :rolleyes:

Is the extra degree of safety worth the costs and risks? That's something only you can answer for yourself. For me, no. The added benefit isn't anywhere near the added risk, cost and liability, especially if, G-d willing, we are able to have children.
 
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