What is the range of a 45/70?

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BTW this current-production Marlin has a 26" barrel.
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Wow.

That's just an impressive looking rifle.

I have missed it on the Marlin pages even though I visit there often.

What model is that?

{Added by edit: 1895 Cowboy.
I must've seen it before,
but didn't pay attention 'til now.

I'll bet this 1895XLR (.45/70, 24") is no slouch, either ... :rolleyes:

zoom_1895xlr.jpg
 
I have what for me was a great find and super shooter. The Browning copy of Winchester 1885 high wall in .45-70. Installing buckhorn sights and shooting smokeless powder loaded to BP speeds of 1250 fps using 405 grain hard cast lead. I have found the the bottom "V" dead on at 100 yards, the center post centered in the "eye" gives me 200 yards and the top "V" gives me 300 yards. Open sights, clean and simple. This Browning will never see copper bullets again. I can shoot all day long with what I consider to be a meduim load and hit with very tight groups.

The buckhorn type looks like a standard rear sight with a small "V" notch and large ears or wings sweeping up from each side of the rear sight, which nearly meet directly over the center of the sight. The effect is something like the upper half of a ghost ring grafted onto a standard open rear sight mounted on the barrel, and cut away at the 12 o'clock position.


Cut and paste info found at http://www.chuckhawks.com/45-70Govt.htm

The .45-70 Government

By Chuck Hawks



The traditional .45-70 factory load is a 405 grain bullet (BC .214, SD .272) at a MV of 1330 fps, and a ME of 1590 ft. lbs. This is a very moderate load that kills well because of the penetration of its big, heavy bullet. It has been used on all North American game, but today should be restricted to use at close range.

In an attempt to improve the low pressure .45-70 load, the factories have been loading a 300 grain JHP bullet (BC .171, SD .204) at around 1,810 fps. At that velocity, according to Remington figures, the ME is 2182 ft. lbs.

The trajectory of this load allows a scoped rifle to be sighted as follows: +3" at 82 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, -3" at 162 yards, and -10.2" at 200 yards. This makes the 45-70 about a 162 yard rifle for use on deer size game.

Pertinent information about the .45-70 includes that it accepts standard .458" diameter bullets, has a COL of 2.55", a maximum case length of 2.105", and a SAAMI MAP of 28,000 cup.

Reloaders with modern single shot rifles can safely exceed the official COL as long as the bullet is not jammed into the rifling when the cartridge is chambered. The bullets in reloads to be used in magazine fed rifles are usually roll crimped in place, but loads intended for single shot rifles need not be crimped.

Handloaders with modern Marlin lever action rifles have pioneered the use of high pressure (+P) .45-70 loads, as the modern Marlin 1895 action is much stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield action or reproductions there of. Lever action rifles are limited to bullets weighing about 400 grains, as heavier (and thus longer) bullets will not feed through their actions.

The owners of modern single shot rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and Browning 1885 High Wall, can safely take the pressure limit even higher, and can use 500 grain bullets. The result is loads that tread on the heels of some African safari cartridges.

The handloader will normally load bullets of 300, 350, 400 and 500 grains, although other bullet weights in the same general ballpark are available. I have had some experience reloading the .45-70 with all of the above bullets, and I have found that IMR 3031, a traditional powder choice for the cartridge, gives excellent performance with all bullet weights.

According to the sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 40.9 grains of IMR 3031 powder can drive a Hornady 300 grain JHP bullet to a MV of 1300 fps, and 52.0 grains of IMR 3031 can drive the same bullet to a MV of 1800 fps. This essentially duplicates the factory loads, and does not exceed the SAAMI specified MAP. These and the Hornady loads to follow used Winchester brass and Federal 210 primers.

The second level of loads are for modern Marlin 1895 lever action rifles. In these loads pressures can run up to 40,000 cup. These reloads can drive a Hornady 350 grain bullet to a MV of 1400 fps with 45.2 grains of IMR 3031 powder, and a MV of 1900 fps in front of 56.1 grains of IMR 3031. These velocities were taken in the 22" barrel of a Marlin 1895 rifle. According to the Hornady Handbook, Sixth Edition, these loads are adequate for ". . . any North American game at moderate range."

The final selection of .45-70 reloads are for strong bolt action or single shot rifles that can take pressures running up to 50,000 cup. In such rifles 55.4 grains of IMR 3031 can give the Hornady 350 grain bullets a MV of 2000 fps, and 59.6 grains a MV of 2200 fps. These loads were chronographed in the 22" barrel of a Ruger No.1 rifle.

For the utmost in penetration on very large animals, the 500 grain Hornady RN or FMJ-RN bullets on top of 44.1 grains of IMR 3031 results in a MV of 1500 fps, and a maximum load of 53.1 grains of IMR 3031 can drive these 500 grain bullets to a MV of 1800 fps. Again, these high pressure loads were tested from the 22" barrel of a Ruger No. 1 rifle.

I can tell you from experience that these heavy loads kick like the devil, but they make the .45-70 a serious "stopping" caliber.

Note: A full length article about the .45-70 Government can be found on the Rifle Cartridge Page.
 
one of my grandpas old neighbor was elk hunting and he was guided with a game warden he had around 250,000$ collection of guns in his basement and he decided to take his 45-70 he shot a bull elk around 75 yards and it kept going and killed a cow about 100 yards behind the bull and remember he was with a game warden and got a big fine. the funny thing was they took the time to take the shot and didnt ever think that that would have happened.
Hornadys leverevolution say they are good to atleaste 200 yards and i have yet to shoot them at the range but i wouldnt doubt it if i could hit the 300 yrd gong
 
"...Original testing was done over 2000 yards..." Not out of a lever action it wasn't. Out of a Trap Door Springfield rifle, sure.
Remington factory 405 grain, jacketed, ammo, zeroed at 100 yards, drops 8.5" at 150, 24" at 200 yards. 78.6" at 300. For that ammo(and it's loaded down because of all the Trapdoor Springfields out there), the max is 150 with no hold over on a deer. Hand loaded ammo, for a lever action, might get you another 50.
 
"...Original testing was done over 2000 yards..."
Not out of a lever action it wasn't. Out of a Trap Door Springfield rifle, sure.
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OK.

We've agreed on that point twice.

Good we've got that settled.

Anything else we haven't addressed yet?
 
My friend just took a 165 lb whitetail last month with his Marlin with a 300 gr hand load at 85 yds. It left two large holes while liquefying the lungs. Deer just dropped. Went through both rib bones, entering and upon exit. Still headed south so watch out. With a scope your easy out to 300. Nice guide gun.
 
My idea of really cool hunting set up on a .45-70 would be in a Ruger #1S firing 400 gr spitzer like a Barnes TSX @ about 1900 or 2000 FPS with a low power scope. That should be a realistic 350 or 400 yard elk rifle.

I've got an 1895 cowboy and even with the most hostile loads it is a maxed out 200 yard rifle under field conditions. This due in large to the round or flat nosed bullets that must be used in a lever gun.

Sure I could start lobbing rounds at 400 yards and probably get a hit but I am talking about first round on fur shooting.

I often wonder about these miraculous claims of 1000+ yard plus hits on bison back in the 1800's. My guess is that if you launch enough bullets into a herd of bison even at 1 mile you are bound to eventually get a fatal hit.

A couple of things make me a bit leary of these buffalo hunting claims of western yore.

One, they did not have effective accurate means to measure range. By definition this makes accurate long range shooting impossible.

Two even with the most aerodynamic of bullets the energy that any of the popular buffalo cartridges of the day were able to carry at range was minuscule. Making the average hit much more likely a wounding shot than a kill. I would venture to guess that there were a whole bunch of gut and leg shot buff that died days later from their wounds.

My guess is that the average market shooting on buff went something like this: once the buff were spotted the shooting would begin sometimes at extremely long range for no other reason than they wanted to shoot at long range.

I would then venture to guess that the party open up with ranging shots until they were able to "walk" a round into range. Eventually they'd start scoring hits into the herd. Some would be killing shots some would just be wounders but hey who cares, there were plenty more buff where those came from.

I'd be impressed if A guy could accurately estimate the range and the wind then pull off a one shot killing hit with iron sights at anything over 400 yards. At 1000 yards it would be a miracle and at anything over that it's just plain simple dumb luck.

I just don't buy into this super long range shooting lore of the old west.
 
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My guess is that the average market shooting on buff went something like this: once the buff were spotted the shooting would begin sometimes at extremely long range for no other reason than they wanted to shoot at long range.

I would then venture to guess that the party open up with ranging shots until they were able to "walk" a round into range. Eventually they'd start scoring hits into the herd. Some would be killing shots some would just be wounders but hey who cares, there were plenty more buff where those came from.
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You'd be wrong. Ammo was very expensive. It was worth a lot to be able to shoot accurately and estimate range. It's also possible to estimate range on buffalo with the width of the front sight, which is what they did.

That doesn't mean that 1000 yard shots were routine, just that these guys actually could make one-shot kills at 400+ yards with skill, not just luck. They had ladder sights for range, and could choose not to shoot in high winds.

American Buffalo mill about when you shoot one. Hunters would shoot a number of them, from relatively close, once they were doing that. They called it a "stand".

MO:

1. Get close enough to the herd to make one good shot. It's really not THAT hard at 400 yards with skill and familiarity with the rifle, on a pretty big target. Rifles were heavy and I find them amazingly easy to shoot accurately offhand or from sticks, resting on anything, whatever, from a good distance. "Accurately" means "in a buffalo lung area", which is a pretty big target. Hitting a gong of that size, standing offhand, at about 250 yards, was not at all hard, the first time.

2. Approach the stand of milling buffalo and shoot as many as possible before they trundle off.
 
Bear,

I'd buy 400 yards with a skilled marksmen.

The claims I find dubious about are the 1000+ yard claims. I am sure it happened but I have my doubts as to how consistent it could possibly be.
 
I don't think that any serious historians talk about routine 1000 yard field shots.

However, there were some very good shots who could consistently drop game at up to half that. I hunted with competitive BPC guys, and if you'd be setting up for a shot, they'd mumble something like, "18 inches". They knew the trajectory of a .45-70. It would not be surprising for the hunters to know, since they made a living by knowing. A lot of us know an amazing amount of jargon, a chartful of numbers, hundreds of computer commands, etc., that are relevant to our occupations.

My point was that, if someone knew he could make shots out to 300 yards in light wind, he'd get himself within 250 yards or less if he could, before shooting. Shots were carefully aimed, and ammo was hoarded.

The buffalo hunters were not just shooting volleys at herds. Armies used that as a tactic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not commercial hunters.
 
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a good 45-70 gun is capable of putting lethal energy into a target at over a mile. An aussie I go to school with was telling me about a trick shooter he saw in australia that could hit a man sized target 9 of 10 shots at 2.5 kilometers with just old fashioned aperture sights.
 
An aussie I go to school with was telling me about a trick shooter he saw in australia
that could hit a man sized target 9 of 10 shots at 2.5 kilometers with just old fashioned aperture sights.
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OK.

We got two choices:

1) "It's" getting real deep in here. :uhoh:
2) This caliber is capable of some interesting tricks.

It's a testable hypothesis.

Evidence anyone?
 
common 2 mile shots guys the thread is for 45-70 not field artillery I might buy 45-120 going that far or 50-140. but 45-70 only off a moutian top into a valley.:mad:
 
There are still 1000 yard matches held and 45-70 is a popular cartridge for it, and has been since the 1870's. Bisley Range at Surrey England.
Black Powder Metallic Silouettes is 200 to 500 meters, Creedmore is 1000 yards. 500 grains of lead is still going about 900fps at that range. The 1884 Buffington rear sight set a standard for generations to come on military rear sights. Arpeture sights, and sights that match the target being shot at. Five shot, 4" groups at 300 yards in the book 40 years with the 45-70, by Paul Matthews. Velocity is not so important as it's made to be nowadays. A 350 gr 45 caliber bullet will go through a buffalo's chest broadside at 800 fps. How much more do you need?
Mike Venturino did a study of the 45-70 at Yuma Proving Grounds where they track trajectory and velocity. I haven't read it in a long time, but it surprised those guys. A 500+ grain bullet is a formidable projectile. The limit is the rifleman's ability.
 
"The buffalo hunters were not just shooting volleys at herds. Armies used that as a tactic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not commercial hunters."


Bear,

I've read about 1000 yard and even 1800 yard buff shot claims from various old west articles. These are the ones I am saying had to be walked into the target. Either that or somebody got real darn lucky on a first shot hit.

The thing is if you shoot enough at enough stuff your bound to launch a golden BB every once in awhile.

Anytime I read about these 700 or 800 yard or longer shots or any other even long range number the alarm bells start to ring in my head. If you don't know your range to within several yards out there you are going to miss. IE there is a HUGE difference between 700 yards and 761 yards, enough that with a modern CRF round you are going to be entirely off target with a normal hold.

So for a buffalo shooter to estimate a buffalo's range within several yards past about 400 yards with the available technology in the 1800's would have been simply impossible. To make consistent first shot hits at those ranges would have been simply impossible.

The difference between the long range silhouette shooters of today and a buff hunter of the 1800's is the modern guy is shooting at targets at a fixed known distance. All he needs to do is dial in his sight and let loose. The range estimation or lack there of would have been the fly in the ointment 120 years ago.

A front blade will give you an estimated range within maybe a 100 yards or so at serious long range. That is not accurate enough to be putting bullets on fur with first round hits. You can't tell me that these guys didn't have to take ranging shots when shooting long distance. The technology simply wasn't there to connect those shots any other way.

I agree with you that most of the market shooting was done within 300 yards. I am simply talking about these outlandish claims We read about from time to time.
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4500 yards is not possible with a .45-70. Period.

What does amaze me however is that over 130 years after this round was first introduced it STILL enlightens the imagination of shooters the world over.

I have now read (on the internet of course) that not only is this round the best dangerous game rounds on the planet(different thread of course) but it is now capable of being used as a counter sniper round at distances exceeding 2 miles and almost touching 3 miles. It has become apparent that there is no need for modern rounds such as the 50 BMG, the 416 Barret or the .338 Lapua as the grand old .45-70 neatly exceeds the performance parameters of them all.

God bless the 45-70!
 
Like I said, nobody serious claims that 1000 yard shots were routine.

That's different from a story about a particular shot that amazed everyone (often including the shooter).
 
The .45-70 in a Marlin can be loaded to equal the ballistics of the .450 Marlin (which is simply a belted .45-70.) So loaded, a man with practice can make shots out to around 300 yards.

But before you rush out and load up a thousand cartridges to that level, load up an half dozen and shoot them, and ask yourself. "Am I having fun?"
 
"But before you rush out and load up a thousand cartridges to that level, load up an half dozen and shoot them, and ask yourself. "Am I having fun?""

Vern.

No kidding! A light 1895 marlin is one of the most ferocious finger nippers and face smackers around with serious heavy loads. I'd rather spend the same amount of time behind a heavy bolt or double rifle any day. They are built with recoil in mind. The little ole 1895 ain't!
 
No kidding! A light 1895 marlin is one of the most ferocious finger nippers and face smackers around with serious heavy loads
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A kid who used to be in my Catechism class got his dad to get him a .450 Marlin. Now this kid is over 18, weighs around 190 lbs, works out and is not fat. He was telling me all about his new deer rifle, and I asked him if he'd shot it yet. He said no, but he planned to shoot it the next day.

Next time I saw him, he told me he took it back and traded for a .30-30.:p
 
I don't like those warmish loads either. 330gr at 1580fps is all I care to handle. I have a friend here who converts everything to 450 Alaskan and loads it up, shoots them out of a 1886 Winchester/Browning models. I shot the 50BMG set up with a good muzzlebrake, a Burris Black Diamond scope and I don't think it hurts as bad.
 
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