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What is with all of this hype with High Capacity Magazines?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by GuyWithQuestions, May 15, 2007.

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  1. GuyWithQuestions

    GuyWithQuestions Member

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    I hear about people complaining all the time about high capacity magazines. My handgun case says "Not legal in California" and some people think my gun is an assault weapon because it holds more than 10 rounds. :scrutiny: I hear about what's going on in Illinois and how they're trying to force Springfield Armory to limit their magazine capacity to 10 rounds? I go to the Brady website and they say that there was this one cop who this one time said there's no reason to have more than 10 rounds on you because in self-defense people tend to shoot multiple times at their killer. The Bradys said that some people have a tendency to empty their magazines before they stop shooting. I don't get it? Many experts say to keep shooting until the deadly threat against you has stopped. From research I've done on legitimate self-defense situations, a lot of people make the mistake of only shooting one time and then are killed because the threat wasn't stopped. All these other areas say that "one shot stops" with handguns is a myth and Hollywood isn't that accurate. I thought that many courts have ruled that the number of rounds fired is irrelevant, only whether deadly force was justified in the first place and if the victim stopped shooting once the threat clearly stopped. So let's say the worse case scenario, someone who's about to be murdered starts shooting away at their would be murderer. The victim doesn't understand "stop once the threat clearly stops". What's the worse of the two evils, a murderer who murders his victim because the victim doesn't have enough fire power for self-defense or the victim who shoots a few more rounds into the would be murderer than necessary?
     
  2. strat81

    strat81 Member

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    Stop trying to understand the anti-gun mentality. It WILL make your head explode.
     
  3. Jkwas

    Jkwas Member

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    Laws made by people who have little to no understanding of what they are legislating. Sad.
     
  4. Autolite

    Autolite Member

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    The magazine capacity laws perform the same function as ALL other gun laws and that is to create the illusion of public safety. Politicians, those with functioning brains, understand the concept of illusion. They know that no gun law will prevent criminals from carrying out their nasty deeds, however, they also know the the general public "feels" safer with the laws in place. No career minded politician is going to admit that guns laws are an ineffective facade ...
     
  5. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Home Invasion

    I remember being asked why "anyone needs more than six rounds" on the same day that a home invasion by three men was reported.

    After pointing out that home invasions often employ multiple bad guys, the response was . . . "Why would you need more than a couple of shots for each bad guy?"

    Well, come spend an afternoon with me at the range . . .
     
  6. quatin

    quatin Member

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    Because in case of a mass shooting a "smaller mag" will mean more reloads and less time shooting people and therefore less casualties. Just like no guns will mean a less efficient method of mass killing and less casualties.
     
  7. Big Calhoun

    Big Calhoun Member

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    It's all hype. The way I look at it, the capacity of a magazine is just another selling point for gun control. I.E. the more rounds you can hold, the more death you can deal out. I find it ironic that in most shootings I read about, the victim is usually only shot once or twice. Go figure.
     
  8. ChrisMG

    ChrisMG Member

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    I copied this from the Gun Facts PDF (Page 64):

    www.gunfacts.info (awesome resource!)
     
  9. slow944

    slow944 Member

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    I was just reading about a couple of 17 year olds that attempted to rob a store and after fireing a couple of shots the clerk pulled his gun and shot one of them and fired at the other who escaped and then tried to shoot the police when they came to arrest him. Both of them had guns and you know they didn't buy them in any gun store or gun show, they either stole them from someone or they bought them off the street from some other criminal. So bans on Hi-Cap mags and all the other Touchy-Feely stuff that Politicians do is just to get votes.
     
  10. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    The anti-gun gang has one goal - a complete and total ban on ALL private ownership of firearms. Some even want a total ban on all firearms, including those issued to the police and military. (A disarmed armed forces would seem silly to anyone but a dedicated anti-gun nut, but they say arms might be issued to the army if the country were attacked.)

    The idea is gradualism. Rather than trying to just ban guns, and send the army to kill anyone who owns one, most anti-gun crazies have opted for an incremental approach, banning one type of gun or one type of accessory at a time, and exploiting what they perceive as weaknesses.

    The "high cap" magazine is seen as a weakness to be exploited with "who needs 30 rounds?" Maryland has a 20 round limit on magazines; larger ones can be owned but not bought or sold. But now the anti-gunsters are proposing a 10-round limit. In states with a 10-round limit, they are asking for a 5-round limit, banning most revolvers as well as limiting magazines. If they get a 5-round limit, they will propose a two round limit or a ban on anything but a single shot, and then only for hunting by a person who can pass a battery of tests on hunting skills.

    Another neat approach is the proposal to ban "military weapons not suitable for civilian use." The proposal will be billed as a "reasonable measure" to ban machineguns and bazookas. But it would extend to all types of guns and gun actions ever used for any purpose at any time by any military force. So all bolt actions, all lever actions, all pump actions, all break open actions and all single shots would be banned, along with all muzzle loaders.

    Jim
     
  11. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Military Weapons

    Which, ironically, is the inverse of Miller.

    Miller lost, if I recall, because his sawn-off shotgun "served no valid militia purpose" (or some such phrasing) -- meaning "you can't have one 'cuz it's not suitable for military applications."
     
  12. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    Having more than 10 rounds is dangerous for the same reason being 18 makes you responsible.
     
  13. SkiLune

    SkiLune Member

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    Just political posturing. The pols are trying to make it look like they are actually doing something.
     
  14. Rumble

    Rumble Member

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    I think ArfinGreebly's and quatin's comments suggest two important characteristics about individuals who make arguments against so-called "high capacity" magazines.

    First, there is a misunderstanding of the effectiveness of a handgun. The question of why anyone would need more than, say, 6 rounds assumes that a) handguns are death rays, so one bullet is all you need; and b) it's easy to successfully hit your target shooting a handgun. Before I got into shooting, I admit that I believed similarly, and wondered why anyone would "need" guns that had 30-round magazines or whatever.

    The second, and what bugs me more, is that the argument that lower mag caps mean fewer casualties implies that a low number of casualties is no big deal--it's only when the numbers get big that it's a problem. That if Cho had killed only a couple people at VT, then it would have been a tragic, but un-trumpeted, murder-suicide news bit.

    I've said it before, but that particular argument pathway is like the old joke about "now we're just haggling over the price."
     
  15. GuyWithQuestions

    GuyWithQuestions Member

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    Well I can understand if someone says that a few casualities is bad, but a lot is worse and it's good to place limits on the gunman from taking down a lot of casualities. What I don't get is when I do a google scholar search and find out that the police only hit their target about 1/5 of the time in high stress situations and that the idea of one shot stops is a myth. This is from scholarly sources, not popular magazines. Police practice a lot, that's an assumption I make. A non-LEO citizen may be less skilled than the police and so the citizen may miss a lot of his/her shots, and so will need to have an adequate amount of rounds. Since the bad guy can keep on attacking after being shot, it's important that the law abiding citizen be able to defend oneself by being allowed to shoot until the threat stops.
     
  16. GuyWithQuestions

    GuyWithQuestions Member

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    What I also don't understand is that the Brady website says that a lot of citizens have the tendency to keep on shooting after they've shot the bad guy. I don't get that logic? Isn't it recommended to keep on shooting until the threat stops and that's a life or death mistake some people make?
     
  17. SkiLune

    SkiLune Member

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    Well, that's a good thing .........because it is illogical. The banners believe that when you put a gun in a good person's hands, he/she will suddenly become a homicidal maniac, rather than a man/woman who simply wants to to be able to defend him/herself if the need ever arises, while waiting for the police to arrive. Pretty straightforward.

    I wonder if the "antis" have ever taken an NRA style Home Protection course, or read any of Ayoob's work.
     
  18. Glockman17366

    Glockman17366 Member

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    "What I also don't understand is that the Brady website says that a lot of citizens have the tendency to keep on shooting after they've shot the bad guy. I don't get that logic? Isn't it recommended to keep on shooting until the threat stops and that's a life or death mistake some people make?"

    Cops do it too... You read about this quite frequently.
    I'd guess it's the adrenaline doing the shooting, actually.

    Anyway...folks, I always use the term "Standard Capacity" and I correct those who use the term high capacity for a standard issue magazine. For a Glock (as an example), I could see the G18 extended magazine (33 rounds) being called a high cap, but not the standard 12-17 round (depending on calibre) that comes with the gun.
    Please join me on this...and correct your own usage and those of others...especially elected folks and those who rail against gun ownership, in general.

    Along those lines...
    Please stop calling AR 15 and AK 47 rifles (and others) "assault rifles". These semi-automatic rifles with detachable mags are nothing more then sporting rifles.
    An "Assault Rifle" is a selective fire or full automatic weapon.

    Anti-rights poeple use scary terms to describe firearms. It's our job to help them learn their errors and help those on the fence (of this issue) to understand the truth about firearms.
     
  19. SkiLune

    SkiLune Member

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    Oh, and more to your point, they believe, as someone pointed out earlier, that handguns are like Star Trek phasers or something. LOL. I suppose some here think of the much maligned 9mm as a stun gun.;)
     
  20. lee n. field

    lee n. field Member

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    Magazine bans l are just one out of pick list of items they want. It doesn't have to actually make sense, it just has to sound good. The long term strategy is to incrementally infringe RKBA until it's essentially gone.

    They (the usual suspects) aren't specifically trying to limit SA. They're trying to do this for everybody. Springfield itself, should the ban pass and they choose to stay, would be inconvenienced. XD magazines are made elsewhere, and others could be contracted out if they're not already.

    Ditto. Stop using VPC's rhetorically loaded terms. "Standard capacity", "full capacity", "normal capacity" are all better. Today's hunting rifle was the infantry man's issued war rifle up through WWII.
     
  21. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    They also say 50 caliber guns will shoot down aircraft and knock trains off the tracks.

    Just because I'm only planning on driving 30 miles doesn't mean I'm only going to put 2 gallons of gas in my car.
     
  22. ConfuseUs

    ConfuseUs Member

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    Actually, some police practice a lot and are very good shooters. Others practice a little and are average shots, and a shocking number of police shoot once a year (qualification) and no more. Those police are poor shots.
    In short, police are NOT blessed with super powers of marksmanship that the non-LEO citizen cannot acquire. A higher proportion of LEOs are unskilled with firearms than you would expect.

    AS far as magazine capacity, un-informed people think that limiting magazines to 10rds will make mass shootings harder. However, if you ever sit down with a gun and a pile of 10 rd magazines and spend 20 min. dropping mags and slapping new ones in you'll see that it doesn't matter much at all. Magazine capacity means nothing in relation to how much ammo you have loaded into magazines already.

    Where magazine capacity can count is if you have thugs kicking down your door. Suppose in this situation you have only a 9mm. A 10rd mag is adequate, but a 15-18 rd magazine is better.

    A situation where magazine capacity doesn't matter much: The same thugs are kicking down your door and you have a 9mm hicap pistol and a 12 guage shotgun with 4 rds of buckshot. I will take the 4 rds of 12 guage buckshot in that situation first, as will many others.
     
  23. nezumi

    nezumi Member

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    The reason is simple. Suppose you're a Bad Guy. You'll want a gun with a large magazine. If you can't get one of those in the US, you'll go to some other country to get it and, as long as you're there anyway, commit your crimes there.

    On the other hand, supposing you're a Good Guy, you don't need a gun at all because the police are just a phone call (and ten minutes) away. Once you call 911, you're safe.
     
  24. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    I hear the new Verizon Bradyberry phone casts a inpenetrable shield of ignorance around you when you dial 911 and hit send! :p
     
  25. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    Except, weren't shotguns used in the trenches during one of the world wars?
     
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