What is wrong with rifles today?
- Thread starter mes228
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Buy a new FN Winchester Model 70, and get rid of the Rugers, Remingtons, etc.
The Model 70 is again everything it once was, plus it's now lighter, more accurate, and with a perfect trigger out of the box without any fooling around.
Some things are better than they used to be, and some are worse. Autoloading shotguns are way ahead.
The Model 70 is again everything it once was, plus it's now lighter, more accurate, and with a perfect trigger out of the box without any fooling around.
Some things are better than they used to be, and some are worse. Autoloading shotguns are way ahead.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The late, great Colonel Townsend Whelen would be proud of you -- and me, too.
I have an older ruger m77 tang safety, it is the only gun I own. When I bought it, it grouped at about 2 inches. I did everything to it, had the action trued, new premium douglas floated barrel, and pillar bedded the action. The smith who did the job specialized in m77s, and he did a great job. The thing is so accurate it is unbelievable, i dont have a bench but off a backpack I can get 3 shot groups with all of them touching.
Any bolt action rifle, I think, no matter what, will work if it is set up properly. If a skilled gunsmith works on any rifle to achieve accuracy I do not see how anything could happen otherwise
Any bolt action rifle, I think, no matter what, will work if it is set up properly. If a skilled gunsmith works on any rifle to achieve accuracy I do not see how anything could happen otherwise
oneounceload
member
Incorrect - do your homework
Uncle Mike
Member
Seriously...! Not even close...!
Yes, way better than the last attempt, but the old Model 70's spank the new ones something awful!
The new(FNH) ones are definitely 'closer' to the good, old, Model 70's of yesteryear, but they ain't back yet! And the old ones didn't 'break' like these new ones seem to be doing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the new Model 70's, but the good ol' days, and their rifles, for the most part are gone!
kwelz
Member
Depends on the type of shooting you do. Some people don't like to sit at a bench and punch holes in paper.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What is the story on new FNH Model 70s breaking?
kcmarine
Member
AR-15 would be the best bet for an accurate semi-automatic, at any price.
Savages are nice.
Or, you could just get an AK, and not expect a ton of accuracy.
Savages are nice.
Or, you could just get an AK, and not expect a ton of accuracy.
Uncle Mike
Member
We have had no less than 4 new(FNH) Model 70's come in with broken safeties, every instance the customer said the safety was 'hit' on something, or bumped against something.
We had to change the safety levers on all 4 rifles, the shaft snaps in two if hit really hard... no concern, it was all warrantied, but I cannot ever remember seeing this happen with the old ones, or any other model 70 style safety.
Nothing was made of it at FNH, the new parts were sent and the broken parts were not requested back. If it happens to you, take note, the little detent ball will usually leave the scene.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Thanks for the information.
Here's some VERY recent experience (yesterday).
I'm 67, and I went to the range yesterday with a friend who happens to be well into his seventies.
We had three Mini-14s, two 581s and a 580. My pal fired several CONSECUTIVE 5-round, 100-yard groups with his stainless/synthetic 581 which were right in the one-inch bracket. Mine, also a 581, didn't do quite that well, but it was grouping under 1.5". (Rifles were scoped, ammo was handloaded).
I also took along my daughter's new Browning Micro-Medallion A-Bolt 7mm-08 with handloads, and it grouped three Hornady 139s into the magic inch on THREE attempts out of three.
My (new in December) DSA FAL, wearing a Bushnell 3200 scope, kept up this performance level, also grouping three rounds into 1" several times as I refined the zero.
From my recent experience, and not just with the rifles mentioned above, there's very little wrong (accuracy-wise) with recent-production rifles that *I* have bought. Maybe I've just been lucky....but my .338 Savage 116 groups 225 TSX bullets into less-than-0.75" for three rounds at 100...consistently. My #1 in .416 Rigby groups TEN RCBS cast bullets in an inch from 100 yards at 2100 fps.
I don't have many complaints.
I'm 67, and I went to the range yesterday with a friend who happens to be well into his seventies.
We had three Mini-14s, two 581s and a 580. My pal fired several CONSECUTIVE 5-round, 100-yard groups with his stainless/synthetic 581 which were right in the one-inch bracket. Mine, also a 581, didn't do quite that well, but it was grouping under 1.5". (Rifles were scoped, ammo was handloaded).
I also took along my daughter's new Browning Micro-Medallion A-Bolt 7mm-08 with handloads, and it grouped three Hornady 139s into the magic inch on THREE attempts out of three.
My (new in December) DSA FAL, wearing a Bushnell 3200 scope, kept up this performance level, also grouping three rounds into 1" several times as I refined the zero.
From my recent experience, and not just with the rifles mentioned above, there's very little wrong (accuracy-wise) with recent-production rifles that *I* have bought. Maybe I've just been lucky....but my .338 Savage 116 groups 225 TSX bullets into less-than-0.75" for three rounds at 100...consistently. My #1 in .416 Rigby groups TEN RCBS cast bullets in an inch from 100 yards at 2100 fps.
I don't have many complaints.
Greg Mercurio
Member
FWIW: I have 2 Ruger #1's. One is a .375 H&H and will shoot under an inch all day long. The other is a .30-338 that was rechambered from a .30-06. It too shoots under an inch all day long. My reloading records show that the load development was done with Nosler Partitions only as it went to Alaska on a moose hunt. The worst load development group was just over 1.8 inches and the best, which is the BEST group I've ever shot was .4" From a sandbag rest. The Remington 700 Safari that I owned also a .375 H&H would also shoot under an inch but it took a lot of load development to get there. Nothing to do on the rifle, just the loads. Wish I still had it.
All manufacturers deal with production tolerances. It's how they make margin. Sometimes the tolerances stack in the right direction, sometimes in the wrong direction. It's life. But if they had the margin to test fire every rifle they produced the "bad" rifles would go back to the line for rework until they could shoot. Unfortunately margins are tighter than ever and getting worse. Labor, energy, taxes, regulatory compliance costs, and materials are all going in the wrong direction. But to hold costs to "reasonable" or no-objection price points, some things go south. Accept it or not, you are going to do what the factory doesn't do anymore. :banghead:
All manufacturers deal with production tolerances. It's how they make margin. Sometimes the tolerances stack in the right direction, sometimes in the wrong direction. It's life. But if they had the margin to test fire every rifle they produced the "bad" rifles would go back to the line for rework until they could shoot. Unfortunately margins are tighter than ever and getting worse. Labor, energy, taxes, regulatory compliance costs, and materials are all going in the wrong direction. But to hold costs to "reasonable" or no-objection price points, some things go south. Accept it or not, you are going to do what the factory doesn't do anymore. :banghead:
Grey Morel
Member
Not to be disrespectful of my elder... but Sir:
You do realize the rifles you listed are VASTLY different guns? The guns you listed as "inaccurate" (Mountain Rifle, RSI, and Ranch Rifle) are all very light guns which balance very differently than the CZ, Savage, and AR's you listed as "accurate".
Again, not to be rude, but you mysteriously shoot well with a wide spectrum of middle weight guns, and poorly with a wide spectrum of light weight guns... I think you can see where i am going with this - Contrary to popular myth, your problem isn't lazy gun makers, or barrel profile voo-doo... you just need guns that fit you.
I shoot light weight guns better than I shoot heavy ones. I will be happy to take those "inaccurate" featherweights off your hands for a small disposal free.
No, they are doing well in the decent trigger and cheap gun departments - actual accuracy or precision are no better than any other brand... and the others are catching up on their triggers.
Funny... because in any other kind of barrel, heat causes vertical stringing, not opening of patterns. More weird barrel Voo-Doo; must be sun spots.
You do realize the rifles you listed are VASTLY different guns? The guns you listed as "inaccurate" (Mountain Rifle, RSI, and Ranch Rifle) are all very light guns which balance very differently than the CZ, Savage, and AR's you listed as "accurate".
Again, not to be rude, but you mysteriously shoot well with a wide spectrum of middle weight guns, and poorly with a wide spectrum of light weight guns... I think you can see where i am going with this - Contrary to popular myth, your problem isn't lazy gun makers, or barrel profile voo-doo... you just need guns that fit you.
I shoot light weight guns better than I shoot heavy ones. I will be happy to take those "inaccurate" featherweights off your hands for a small disposal free.
No, they are doing well in the decent trigger and cheap gun departments - actual accuracy or precision are no better than any other brand... and the others are catching up on their triggers.
Funny... because in any other kind of barrel, heat causes vertical stringing, not opening of patterns. More weird barrel Voo-Doo; must be sun spots.
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oldfool
Member
me too...
a scoped centerfire hunting rifle that cannot reliably hit a rabbit at 100 yards is not a hunting rifle worth having
and lightweight, shorter barrels is a pitiful excuse for that
American manufacturing in the new millenium is in it's death throes (all manufacturing,all goods, other than niche market quality at high price). The companies that did not care about quality went to Mexico, the ones that did care went to Canada. The dirt cheap stuff moved from Japan & Taiwan to China.
"luck of the draw" is very real and anybody can occasionally draw a bad hand, but that is not what OP was saying.
for an "American" name that still delivers quality at a decent price, look north of the border, Savage
(if nothing else, they at least put improved triggers on the map for factory hunting rifles, and woke up the rest of the industry)
otherwise, look across the Atlantic (Howa, Tikka, etc.)
a scoped centerfire hunting rifle that cannot reliably hit a rabbit at 100 yards is not a hunting rifle worth having
and lightweight, shorter barrels is a pitiful excuse for that
American manufacturing in the new millenium is in it's death throes (all manufacturing,all goods, other than niche market quality at high price). The companies that did not care about quality went to Mexico, the ones that did care went to Canada. The dirt cheap stuff moved from Japan & Taiwan to China.
"luck of the draw" is very real and anybody can occasionally draw a bad hand, but that is not what OP was saying.
for an "American" name that still delivers quality at a decent price, look north of the border, Savage
(if nothing else, they at least put improved triggers on the map for factory hunting rifles, and woke up the rest of the industry)
otherwise, look across the Atlantic (Howa, Tikka, etc.)
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a cousin bought a "custom shop" rem 700 mountain in 338WM couple of years back that wouldn't even chamber/extract properly, new. sent it back and works fine now. no idea about how his current handloads are working for accuracy though.
usually wood contact with bbl will create erratic groupings. they expand/contract at different rates from heat/humidity. plastic/synthetic stocks will do same, but rarely come molded to fit against bbl. buy rifles that need to be accurate with this in mind, or "free float" existing stock. not a difficult job.
also, some firearms will shoot better MOA #'s beyond 2-300yds than at 100. same a function of bullet/bbl twist. i used to have a steyr SSG PII that shot nearly identical groups at 100 and 300 yds with FGMM 308. took the sierra BTHP match bullet that distance to "go to sleep". before discounting the firearm, try it out further. may be just an ammo issue.
gunnie
usually wood contact with bbl will create erratic groupings. they expand/contract at different rates from heat/humidity. plastic/synthetic stocks will do same, but rarely come molded to fit against bbl. buy rifles that need to be accurate with this in mind, or "free float" existing stock. not a difficult job.
also, some firearms will shoot better MOA #'s beyond 2-300yds than at 100. same a function of bullet/bbl twist. i used to have a steyr SSG PII that shot nearly identical groups at 100 and 300 yds with FGMM 308. took the sierra BTHP match bullet that distance to "go to sleep". before discounting the firearm, try it out further. may be just an ammo issue.
gunnie
Robert Wilson
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I haven't generally found old guns to be better than new ones. In fact, tolerances and materials in many old guns (including my beloved pre-64 Model 70s) aren't quite as good as they are in many modern guns. Modern manufacturing techniques are simply more accurate than older ones, and "hand made" is only as good as the hands that made it. I do suspect that quality control was better "back in the day" (in that at least as many bad ones were made, but fewer of those mistakes made it out the door) but have no way of really confirming it.
bluemalibu
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We need to be careful as we undertake to paint with broad brushes...
...has the Chevy/Ford debate taught us nothing?
Espousing widely held beliefs, or worse yet, simply parroting the opinions of singular dubious sources can leave one with a smidgen of egg on one's face.
The most accurate AND the least accurate long gun in my battery have both been Rugers. They also both happen to be flavors that common knowledge would dictate that one would not be looking to find a tack-driver nor a shotgun pattern from. And both were very lightweight rifles.
A stainless Mini-14 that I owned could not keep half of the rounds fired through it on an 8" paper plate at fifty meters. Three different style stocks, glass bedding, and free-floating barrels made no difference.
On the flip-side, an M77UL in .270 that I received in a trade for a Winchester shotgun... and, that I have to confess, I had just assumed would be somewhat handicapped in the accuracy department by the pencil barrel in this little 6 pound rifle, produced a five-round grouping of .439" at 100 yds.
...has the Chevy/Ford debate taught us nothing?
Espousing widely held beliefs, or worse yet, simply parroting the opinions of singular dubious sources can leave one with a smidgen of egg on one's face.
The most accurate AND the least accurate long gun in my battery have both been Rugers. They also both happen to be flavors that common knowledge would dictate that one would not be looking to find a tack-driver nor a shotgun pattern from. And both were very lightweight rifles.
A stainless Mini-14 that I owned could not keep half of the rounds fired through it on an 8" paper plate at fifty meters. Three different style stocks, glass bedding, and free-floating barrels made no difference.
On the flip-side, an M77UL in .270 that I received in a trade for a Winchester shotgun... and, that I have to confess, I had just assumed would be somewhat handicapped in the accuracy department by the pencil barrel in this little 6 pound rifle, produced a five-round grouping of .439" at 100 yds.
Kernel
Member
For Howa, wounldn't you have to look across the Pacific?
toivo
Member
Well, you could cross the Atlantic and then follow the Silk Road...
gun guy
Member
It's not just rifles, it seems to be quality vs profits. Our name is famous, stamp it on junk, pocket the profits. Pride in craftsmanship is a vanishing concept. It is cheaper to just replace a defective unit with a new one, than build a good one, and have a repair deptment on hand to fix any bad units. caveat emptor.
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