What is wrong with the 1911 design?

[Lonestar49]

Just slighty off subject..

Quote: On the contrary, I make every effort to ejaculate with regularity that befits every red-blooded American male.
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MZ,

hmmm, a man that knows no bounds..

Does this mean you take on tough-challenging (but large money-maker) cases on a pro bono basis now and then?

We're talking about deep pockets, just right for your hand-type.. If you're half, the person, of what you write.


Ls

 

[Michael Zeleny]

On the contrary, I make every effort to ejaculate with regularity that befits every red-blooded American male.

MZ,

hmmm, a man that knows no bounds..

Does this mean you take on tough-challenging (but large money-maker) cases on a pro bono basis now and then?

We're talking about deep pockets, just right for your hand-type.. If you're half, the person, of what you write.

Most of the work I do these days is pro bono. But in my line, it is not reckoned as cases.

 

[1911Tuner]

Michael...This has been fun. Really!

I've handled and fired a couple of SIg 210s, and can attest to their quality in both engineering and in the execution...so I'm not about to knock'em. I appreciate good engineering. I appreciate simple engineering more, though. Utilitarian.

But...until you're prepared to offer proof of the puddin' outside of a sterile, controlled environment, I remain unimpressed. Either a pistol is a life-saving tool that one can count on when the chips are plumb down at the bottom of the barrel, or it's not.

I guess it's a little like the Germans and Italians at Porsche and Ferarri in 1965...so brimming with confidence that they were the only real contestants for the upcoming racing season...that they never saw Carroll Shelby coming. And, so a Texas rancher and chili chef cleaned their respective clocks
with a brutish, bare-knuckle brawler that he created by massaging an AC Bristol chassis to acccept an American pushrod V8 engine...and the refined, marvelous feats of modern engineering ate his dust and smoke for three seasons.

It was a simple mating...the Bristol and the 427 Ford side-oiler. A project that almost any talented backyard tinkerer could have accomplished, given access to whatever parts that he needed...and the great thing about the
Cobra was that if something broke or wore out on the engine or transmission...you could get whatever you needed at the local Ford dealership's parts counter...and they usually had everything in stock.
By mid-1966, you could get almost any other part for the car, because the Cobra had RPO status. You could literally go buy one...uncork the exhaust system...rejet the carburetors...and go trounce a Porsche if you had the driving skills. There are even some parts for the 427 engine and the top-loader transmission that are available today...40 years after production ceased on the Cobra.

So...Impress me. Let's 'rassle. Come get down to the nitty-gritty with the Sig.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

But...until you're prepared to offer proof of the puddin' outside of a sterile, controlled environment, I remain unimpressed.

If you want a handgun that won a war, get a Tokarev.

If you want a handgun that killed a lot of people, get a Luger.

On the scales of XXth century wartime body counts, American small arms rate very low.

On the other hand, when it comes to sidearms, I care not a whit for war stories and other kinds of fairytales. I want to hit what I aim at. My main concern is with precision. If it cannot be measured, it does not exist.

I appreciate good engineering. I appreciate simple engineering more, though. Utilitarian.

P210 is much simpler than M1911. No bushing. No link. No plunger tube. No grip safety. Pure handgunning.

 

[carsten1911]

Luger

Michael,

let me give you the impression the partner of my mother handed on to me:

"I had a k98 and a Luger issued when I was drafted for the Volkssturm (towards the end of WW II) at the age of 15. My comrades were either kids like me or old men who could not keep up with us youngstes when we ran. One of the "kids" had lost his k98 when he panicked. Since he was unarmed except a pocket pistol he probably got from his mom or dad I gave him that Luger. It had a bad reputation for choking when being within 2 metres of a puddle, so I didnt really feel I lost a gun...".
(Just for the record: My moms partner was soon weaponless, too...steel-cased ammo had killed the extractor on his k98 and the logistic chain had long been shattered).

The Luger might have been present in a lot of killings...but they were head-shots from behind.

It is primadonna-finicky about ammo and way too tight. Interesting system and that all, but of no real practical use when you havent got a platoon to back you up...

But the subject of your dispute is 1911 vs. SIG 210.
Maybe the both of you should name "Sekundanten" (dont know the English word for that, but I guess its self-explaining) to settle the parameters for that comparison "duel"?

Carsten

 

[doubleg]

As a 1911 owner IMO there is only one flaw in the 1911's design. The incredibly overcomplicated hammer - strut assembly.

 

[45auto]

I would "vote" for the grip safety.

On a series 70 "style" 1911, it serves no useful purpose and will not prevent any type of realistic AD...that I'm aware of.

In the modern form, beavertail, it does prevent a lot of people from being able to fire the gun, leave edges where your hand rides, shows manufacturer's they are not able to fit parts precisely, creates openings for dirt to get in, etc.

Other than that...I like them just fine.

I know I repeated myself on this one, but I thought it was worth it!

 

[ccmdfd]

I would "vote" for the grip safety.

On a series 70 "style" 1911, it serves no useful purpose and will not prevent any type of realistic AD...that I'm aware of.

In the modern form, beavertail, it does prevent a lot of people from being able to fire the gun, leave edges where your hand rides, shows manufacturer's they are not able to fit parts precisely, creates openings for dirt to get in, etc.

Very well said, and I agree with completely.

 

[wditto]

only thing wrong with it presently is it is not offered in titanium....just imagine the exact same pistol in a stronger metal at ONE-HALF the weight....

 

[SuperNaut]

IIRC Titanium isn't stronger than steel, it's just lighter. So you get a weight savings, but with no strength sacrifice.

 

[psychophipps]

I personally would love to see a modernized, simplified "new version" of the 1911. Keep the same shape, size, dimensions, whatever but make it with only as many parts as it really needs. Hell, they could even call it a 2011 or something. I like the 1911 fine but it's a way over-complicated machine when compared to the modern firearm designs you see today.

 

[enfield]

Single-action, two too many safeties.

 

[SuperNaut]

So aside from Michael and Tuner's challenge what are the most mentioned?

Lighter
More robust small parts, esp. extractor
Less hand fitting/better slop tolerance
No grip safety

Does that seem accurate to you guys?

 

[SuperNaut]

Hell, they could even call it a 2011 or something.

Heh-heh.

 

[Markbo]

So when it is all said and done an academic with a penchant for book knowledge and numbers has an insufficient caliber in an already outdated weapon that he claims is the end all be all, issues a one-sided challenge against a time proven (and statistically modern proven) man stopper in a gun design that is nearly 100 years old that will shoot - always. Always.

And for him it is only about accuracy. Am I correct that what we have is a target shooter wanting to have a shootoff with a combat gun? And he wants to control ALL the rules of the shootoff? And He wants to insult those with a "fairlytale mentality" about the 1911 that was being manufactured before Taguchi was even born.

We have someone issuing a challenge that in his opinion - is the culmination of all the modern high tech Swiss (German really) engineering and manufacturing against something that was made when steel was only a few years past from being made by blowing air across pig iron and stainless steel was not even a dream. Alloys were made in buckets by a man with a grade school education and modern manufacturing was in it's infancy.

A gun that is still made today by dozens of companies, modified by thousands more for a wide, wide range of uses against his... what? Footnote in history and personal fave because it is accurate? Shoot I have several .22 revolvers that I will put up against any P210 on the planet. What does that mean? Nothing.

You either want to have an accuracy shoot off or you want an accuracy and reliability shootoff or you issued a false challenge. Hmmmm.... what was that said about intellectual bullying? And what do bully's always do when someone stands up to them? Control issues is the term that comes to mind.

Hmmm... Michael... just curious. What kind of car do you drive?
I drive a Ford Pickup. Wanna race?

 

[the naked prophet]

Naked Prophet...

Rounded locking lugs are caused by linkdown and barrel drop timing issues. The mainspring has nothing to do with it...nor the recoil spring...nor the ammunition. Your source is misinformed.

Like I said, I don't know about the 1911 but in the Hi-Power that is supposed to be an issue. My source is Stephen A. Camp, and he mentions a in a few different articles that overpowered ammo or weak mainspring (his way of saying hammer spring) can be a cause of rounded locking lugs. From his website, http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowers9mmvs40.htm:

Also, the 32-lb. mainspring did not come as a result of the forty Hi Powers. I don't remember the exact year, but this occurred in the mid to late '70's. Originally, the word was that this was to make sure the pistol reliably fired some makes of foreign ammunition having hard primers. I believe that the change was due to ammunition considerations, but not hard primers as the firing pin springs were made heavier in conjunction with the mainspring power change. During this time, there was much unpleasantness in the Middle East and some 9mm ammo intended for use only in submachine guns was being used in Hi Powers on both sides. Reportedly, the result was rounded locking lugs and cracked barrel cams. The heavier mainspring slows the unlocking process and helps prevent these problems.

I considered him to be a generally reliable source on the Hi-Power, as I consider you to be a generally reliable source on the 1911.

 

[the pistolero]

On the other hand, when it comes to sidearms, I care not a whit for war stories and other kinds of fairytales.

Considering that a sidearm, for all its limitations, IS a tool of war, that is an incredibly fatuous statement to make...

 

[HisSoldier]

On that titanium post, as a production machinist and very active untrained engineer (Meaning I design a lot of products for local industry without the benefit of a degree) I also like titanium. It is vastly superior to aluminum, but I'm sorry, in almost every comparison except corrosion resistance and weight it is inferior to carbon steel, as are every other material that is used today for handgun manufacture except alloy steel. That's my opinion (plastic is for toys).

 

[ScottD]

Its not made from polymer.


*ducks*




J/K

Check out the Kimber BP Pro Ten II. 13+1 rounds of .45ACP goodness in a 1911 design with a polymer grip. I love mine. Reliable and VERY accurate. The lighter weight of the polymer offsets the weight of the extra rounds so it's no heaver than a standard steel single stack 1911. Interestingly enough, even though the grip is a little boxier, The grip is no wider than a single stack grip at the widest point with standard thickness wood grips. Still feels great in the hand and is a natural pointer for me, like all 1911s.

 

[DougDubya]

For a polymer 1911, Wilson has his KZ 10-shooter too. A slim-grip, high capacity .45 auto. Israel also makes the Bul series of 1911's, which are a good polymer frame.

Honestly, for a right handed shooter, the 1911 is perfect.

For me, though, I still reserve the right to complain about ambi-safeties.

 

[Markbo]

Here you go Michael. This may help you with that 'other thing' you like to do:
http://www.p210.com/images/

 

[Michael Zeleny]

On the other hand, when it comes to sidearms, I care not a whit for war stories and other kinds of fairytales.

Considering that a sidearm, for all its limitations, IS a tool of war, that is an incredibly fatuous statement to make...

Every red-blooded American male is entitled to his preferences. I prefer young women for nude company, learned books for optional entertainment, and accurate guns for social work. I do not presume to dictate anyone else's preferences, even when they involve berating my fatuity.

 

[SuperNaut]

Ah, so much for my thread.

 

[texagun]

Michael:
I don't know if you ever saw the movie "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood and Gene Hackman, but your verbage and pomposity reminds me so much of the character played by Richard Harris, "The Duck of Death." You have been quite entertaining. Thanks for the laughs!

 

[Michael Zeleny]

A gun that is still made today by dozens of companies, modified by thousands more for a wide, wide range of uses against his... what? Footnote in history and personal fave because it is accurate? Shoot I have several .22 revolvers that I will put up against any P210 on the planet. What does that mean? Nothing.

Many years ago I interviewed a job candidate employed by McDonald's as a statistician in charge of supporting the quality image of its burgers with a banner indicating the number of millions served. As demonstrated by the testimonials collected in this thread, the M1911 is to handguns what the Big Mac is to food.

You either want to have an accuracy shoot off or you want an accuracy and reliability shootoff or you issued a false challenge. Hmmmm.... what was that said about intellectual bullying? And what do bully's always do when someone stands up to them? Control issues is the term that comes to mind.

I am still waiting for someone to quote the accuracy requirements that the U.S. government imposed on its WWII M1911A1 contractors for standard milspec issue sidearms. We have the results of the Swiss test pitting a 1919 Government model against two Lugers, a P38, and a Radom. We have no test pitting an M1911 against a P210. I propose to fire 5,000 rounds out of a machine rest at 50 yards, at an NRA bullseye target, for a combination of accuracy and reliability, with mutually agreed upon score penalties for failures to fire or cycle, and harsher penalties for field-replaceable part breakage. The point is to evaluate the tools, factoring out human skills and preferences.

Hmmm... Michael... just curious. What kind of car do you drive?

2005 Cadillac CTS-V.

I drive a Ford Pickup. Wanna race?

No.