What Makes a .40 S&W So Good?

[cratz2]

The thing with 10mm recoil is that most factory (as in from major manufacturers) download it to near 40S&W levels.

I've shot nearly full power 10mm in the little G29 and, while it requires a bit more attention than a 26 or 27, it isn't something that should be feared. A little 2" snub firing full 357 loads is no worse in my opinion.

 

[HSMITH]

Ignorance is no excuse when the information has been provided..

The 135@1500 shows LESS pressure than factory loads, go READ the thread FITH linked.

IMO, the reason hotter ammo is not available commercially is the market is VERY small. Recoil becomes quite brisk, blast much like a 357 mag, and not many people can handle it. I think VERY few would buy a second box.

Unless you are a POOR handloader setback is not an issue, not at all! With proper precautions and equipment it takes over 150 pounds of force on the bullet point for setback to begin with my 40 reloads, and it takes over 200 to set the bullet back .020" (put the round in your kinetic bullet puller backwards, bullet out, and use the hammer and handle to get a good grip otherwise it is very hard to control and get decent readings). I only weigh 185 so I am not sure what the real number is for measureable setback, I just know it is alot. 15 chamberings from slidelock of the same round only show .002-.005" of setback, or about the same amount of deviation in OAL you find in most commercial ammo. I have only seen one factory round that is close to mine in resistance to setback, and that is Cor-Bon 135 load. Most others are in the 50-80 pound range.

Good thing we have experts that don't test anything nor research anything to guide us through these things:banghead: .

Until you have been there and done that the way to find out about it is to ASK, not proclaim that it is unsafe because YOU don't know how to do it safely.

 

[deuce20]

What Makes a .40 S&W So Good? ... for me the weapon, a S&W 6.5" 610

I get great .40S&W accuracy out of this 6.5" S&W 610, plus I can load up higher-energy 10MM on occasion. The 25-yard target shown below is shot easily - ... (truth in advertising) only after practice emphasizing trigger control did my groups tighten.

This accuracy for me is astonishing ... can't anyone tell me that .40S&W is inherently inaccurate! ... well, I will say .40S&W is a challenging round from my H&K 40 USPC. I love the H&K, but it sure takes alot of practice to shoot respectable groups.

 

[Nightcrawler]

10mm and .357 Magnum are more or less ballistic equals. These days, you see more 125 grain loads for .357, but that doesn't reflect what the round is capable of. Like 10mm, .357 has been downloaded as of late, but for a different reason (use in 16oz snubbies...still a recoil problem).

They have similar bullet weights (140 grain vs 135 grain, 158 grain vs 155 grain, both have 180 and 200 grain bullets) and in factory loadings push them to similar velocities. Both can be safely hotloaded beyond factory loadings in strong guns (GP100, 610, etc.).

So, I'd imagine the recoil of the two would be very similar in guns of similar weight and design. (A 610 4" should recoil about the same as a 627 4", using similar loads.) In theory, anyway.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

The 40 is good because you can warm up with it and then move onto a 10mm. Beyond that it is a nice plinking round. It is fun to shoot like the 9mm but not much else.

They don't call it the "40 short & weak" for nothing.....


Long live the 10mm, the round Jeff Cooper designed!!!!!!

 

[agtman]

"***can't anyone tell me that .40S&W is inherently inaccurate!"


Let's get serious.

It took a scoped 610 with a 6.5" 10mm/.40cal barrel to get those groups. Okay, that's good shootin' on your part, but my Delta's done pretty close to that off-hand. With a shorter barrel and no scope, the .40 quickly becomes a certified ... minute-of-barn-door cartridge.

Also, a ways back someone commented on the feeding issue. The 10mm AUTO has demonstrated bobble-free feeding in every autoloading design it was every chambered in - and WITHOUT bullet setback.

At least in 1911-platforms, the 40S&W is a notoriously finicky feeder, which is why you'll find competitive shooters loading their .40s at or near 10mm COAL for more reliable functioning.

Tells you something, don't it?

 

[deuce20]

agtman:

For me it does take a S&W 610 to get that kind of accuracy with either .40S&W OR 10MM. My experience has been that .40S&W and 10MM have very similiar accuracies from the S&W610 out to about 50 yards.

That orange dot in the photo above is a 1-1/2" Birchwood Casey Target Spot which gets completely covered at 25 yards by any fixed or target handgun sights in my collection.

 

[PCRCCW]

So the 40 Short and Weak should bow down to the 10mm gods, eh?

Ok...........Ba ha ha ha ha........Whatever!

We can have the 10mm bow down to the 50 AE Gods and so on.

Shoot well..................................

 

[JayGee]

.40 S&W

At the end of the day:

compared to 9mm, .40 S&W offers wider, heavier bullet with more energy

compared to .45ACP, .40 S&W offers better concealability, less recoil, more mag capacity

I own a 45 1911 but am considering the CZ 75B in .40 S&W. 9MM is a old, historic round with alot of loyal adocates. But, compared to the .40 S&W, 9mm is a whimpy round for personal defense.

 

[Majic]

Why push a cartridge and firearm to the limits and beyond when another suitable cartridge and firearm exists? What's the purpose in battereing or stressing a .40SW when you can achieve the same performance out of the 10mm whose platforms are designed to take pressures like that?
You can load a .38sp to the capabilities of a .357mag load and not have case failure. The handgun on the other hand may not survive the experiment. The .44mag and the .454 both were derived from the same concept. The capabilities of the cartridge cases were never a real concern. The platforms have been the weak link.
Save your handguns from shortened life expectancy and use the larger platforms. Stressed metal can sometimes give no warning before it fails. The firearm was engineered for a particular cartridge developing a standardized pressure with a large saftey measure built in to allow for acculative manufactoring tolerances. Threading into the safety margins can allow the accumulated tolerances of individual firearms to ne day bite you in the a$$.
Yall be careful pushing cartridges to the limits. There are alot of factors working against you while you try to achieve your set goals.

 

[JayGee]

Majic-why would you consider a .40S&W "battering or stressing a firearm"????? Firearms for this load are designed for it; these .40S&W loads are a lot lighter than .45acp or 10mm, yet why aren't these "battering and stressing".

The problem with the 10mm is it's too big for concealed carry in most street clothing; business or casual attire. It's fine for home protection, hunting, range work, law enforcement. But if a civilian wants an all around firearm, I don't think you can beat the .40 S&W.

 

[Sean Smith]

He's talking about the 135gr @ 1,500+ ft/sec overloads of .40 S&W mentioned above. His point is that if you want 10mm ballistics, buy a 10mm so the gun can cope with the increased stresses involved. Chamber pressure is probably the least of your worries when dealing with a .40 S&W gun that is just a re-barreled 9x19 design loaded to 10mm power levels.

And for the folks who think loading their .40 S&W up to 10mm power levels is OK, there are alot of folks with blown-up .40 S&W guns that would suggest otherwise, may of whom weren't trying to be macho about their load development.

 

[Majic]

Thanks Sean.
I'm not saying no one should explore cartridge capabilites, just that to be on the safe side use enough gun if one exists. Each overload fired will stress the platform. You may get away with it several times will no ill effects seen, but one day something may give out and the results can be catastophic. I have seen several blown handguns, but also know of a shooter with partial usage of his right hand, missing a portion of his finger on his left and is blind in one eye after his pistol catastrophically blew up.

 

[FireInTheHole]

Majic:
Look if I was shooting my 'overloads', , through a sig or other alloy framed .40 like a beretta 96 your argument would hold weight. There are documented cases of such frames giving out when converted to .357sig.

I am, however, shooting a glock 22 with an upgraded 22lb recoil spring. My frame isnt deforming and no noticable additional peening has occured to the slide.

Sean Smith:
Just how is a gun going to KB if the pressures are almost 3kpsi below max SAAMI? I'm sorry, but that just does not make any sense.

For the record, do we all agree that overpressure is the cause of kabooms?

At most the frame will be trashed... but I think the glock 22 is tough enough if a spring upgrade is used.

Just FYI I'm one of those unlucky guys with hands too small to shoot a 10mm comfortably. I'll take my .40 s&w 'overloads' as they are the only thing that sets the .40 apart from a 9mm in my eyes.

EDIT: Sean Smith, I just glanced at your homepage... you seem rather fond of glocks... why do you feel that a g22 isnt up to my 'overloads'?

 

[Shmackey]

The 40 will FAR surpass 9mm and get quite a ways past the 45acp for sheer power.

Sure, if you compare the jacked-up .40 pressure to a standard-pressure .45ACP. Comparing apples to apples, though, changes things just a bit.

 

[mrapathy2000]

40S&W compared to 9mm and 45acp is a new round. it has only been out what 10 years compared to over 50+ years. corbon and other companies didnt release 135gr round pushing 1300fps and 500 ft lbs energy that long ago its generation 3 40S&W. generation 2 is 155gr doing 1200fps and 490-500ft lbs and 165gr at light and full load.

in hodgdons 2004 annual manual for handloading/reloading they post loads for 135gr doing 1480fps and 600+ ft lbs think its more around 670ft lbs. the recoil is supposed to be stout and will put good wear on the gun and shooter its max load within safe pressure 32,400psi with 12 of longshot powder. a safer load with 135gr bullet is 10.5 of longshot which does 1367fps and 28,100psi well within safe pressure. of coarse the disclaimer in the section says use only fully supported barrels which is standard disclaimer with 40S&W.

they also have load for 155gr pushing 1329fps at 32,300fps using 10 of longshot powder and getting to 600ft lbs. another load for 155 doing 1244fps 29,600psi and near 500ft lbs energy.

also something I have never seen besides from hornady as custom round is 200gr bullets. now no one makes commercial 200gr ammo for 40S&W why I dont know plenty of load data out their for it. it tends to get slow in 700-800 and at most barely above 900fps.

after finding this info it makes me want to go out and get setup for handloading because commercial ammo in 40S&W is bit limited in availibility.

if you go with 10mm good luck finding ammo. best to handload or buy bulk of whats availible and that is not much. overall I like .400 or 10mm bullets. they can do quite a bit

 

[Shmackey]

10mm can get to 44mag energy

I want to visit your magic land. I have never seen a unicorn.

 

[Caliburn]

number crunching

Good discussion here. One thing that's worth repeating is that the difference between a .355 projectile and a .40 is NOT just .045 of an inch. That's only the difference in diameter. The AREAS are the key fact, and there it's much more significant.

(Who'd have thought this high school stuff would come in handy. Feel free to check my numbers, it's late.)

Pi times the radius squared of a 9mm, .40, and .45 cal projectile gives their (cross-sectional) area as follows:

9mm (.355) = .099
.40 caliber = .126 (26% increase over .355)
.45 caliber = .159 (26% increase over .40, 61% increase over .355)

Then you have to figure in the penetration of each round, then the potential for expansion of a JHP, all that extra stuff.

Any of those three calibers will work, but if you can't get affordable full-caps for 17 9mm, your choices are 10+1 in either 9mm or .40, or 7+1 of .45.

So what makes the .40 so good? Bigger bullets, and more of them!