What makes a Kalashnikov less accurate than its western counterparts?

[SHvar]

If the Brits were so worried about getting caught drinking in the field why did it happen so much, not too many years ago. Yes, I saw this first hand once, and know many others who saw this over the years training with the Brits. In fact Ill site an incident with an entire battalion not showing up to an ambush site, when the ambush moved to where they camped out for the night, all were still either drunk and passed out, or hung over heavily.
Dont tell me its made up, one of these incidents happened in Germany in the mid to late 80s.
Regardless of which rifle a person prefers, the AR is much more accurate, and the AK can be slightly more reliable when very dirty, but if both are too dirty, both are paper weights.
The Iraqis liked the M-16 much more because it was easier to shoot, and much more accurate to shoot. Also seeing heads explode from 300-400 plus meters away from the M-16 that fired the round helped alot. Thanks in part to the Trijicon ACOG and American military training. In fact the iraqis like the M-4 much better than the AK, but they wont be getting those from us.

 

[musick]

I mean, if you submerge them both in mud, neither are going to run.

Not true:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPbF0kKyc2c

 

[musick]

Here is a link to part 1 of a 5 part series on AR vs AK. I found it quite balanced and fair to both:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN-T_zeTdTM&feature=fvsr

No matter how you look at it, both platforms are 40+ (one is even 50+) years old. U.S troops in combat deserve a more modern system IMO.

For civis, either is more than adequate.

 

[Dan Crocker]

In fact the iraqis like the M-4 much better than the AK, but they wont be getting those from us.

Actually, both the IA and the ANA have been getting M4s. In 2008 they were beginning to field select units with the M4 at KMTC in Kabul. This page http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/20070517.aspx talks about the issue of the M16 and M4 to the IA.

 

[JShirley]

I saw many more AK platforms, but I did see some ANA with M16s at Pol-e-Charki in 2007. I think they were A1s, but it's been a while...

 

[Dan Crocker]

Ah...Pol-e-Charki. Did you like route Pegasus then?

 

[JShirley]

I have never been more frightened of physical danger than zipping along on a "shooter ride" in a Ford F550 from Black Horse to Phoenix. I think we averaged over 75 mph, and came within feet of taking a bus head-on at a combined speed of well over 110 mph...

As we neared Phoenix, the E5 looked back and told me, You don't need to mention to anyone how fast we made this trip.

J

 

[paintballdude902]

tolerances

these looser tolerances allow for the rifle to function very well but they arent as accurate since there is more play between the parts

 

[Deutsche Schuetzen]

I recently purchased a interarms Tantal AK-74 in 5.45x39 with the original chrome lined barrel that is reportedly made by Steyr.I replaced the original folding stock with original Russian Red laminated wood. I installed a milled steel Beryl scope rail with a Russian ww2 4x three post scope.With the standard Russian ball ammo I get 2" groups at 100 yards prettey consistantly.I recently aquired a case of RWS 5.45x39 ammo and my "Red Scorpion " shoots 1 moa with this ammo .Having 3 friends directly KIA in the Marine Corps due to failures of the M-16 just for reliability sake I prefer the AK-74 ;and they can be accurate. This is not a fluke as a good friend recently went the same route and his is just as accurate.I have a M-1A a H&K 93 and many other battle weapons and I consider this my most reliable.I still have a lot of connections in the Marine Corps even though I a retired and I have heard many reports of massive M-16 failures and of many front line Marines who were dumping the M-16s for an ak for reliability sake.Just an added thought;Thanks

 

[Dan Crocker]

J-
It's much safer to ditch the uniforms and go out in a Corolla with a nice beard. It's so ridiculously hard to get the Army to realize that, though.
We'd run into Phoenix and CSTC-A PSD convoys all the time driving like jerks in their SUVs. It's funny how the commanders want to look like baller s driving around in those, but all they do is scream 'target.' Plus, you can't fight out of them. We had a couple armored cars, but we'd rarely take them out.

But here we go getting all off-topic again...

 

[nalioth]

I recently purchased a interarms Tantal AK-74 in 5.45x39 with the original chrome lined barrel that is reportedly made by Steyr.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Steyr did not make the barrel in your rifle.

You see, when a process becomes universal, it picks up the name of it's creator. Steyr machinery has been sold to companies around the world for decades, and all produce "steyr (process) hammer forged barrels"

 

[danweasel]

Hey with the slant style muzzle brake (which I have) maybe affecting accuracy, what would be the best fix? Just taking it off? Replacing it with a ???? style brake?

By the way, I haven't cleaned my AK yet and it hasn't jammed yet. Even at 50 degree's below zero. Of course, I only shot 60 rounds that day. I have fired really close to 1900 rounds total. I just put a Texas Weapon Systems rail on it and promptly left my crappy Baraska Red dot sight on for 3 days killing the battery and negating my chance to check the accuracy of the rifle. With the mojo sights I had before I could hit small stuff at 100 yards pretty well but I never "printed" it on paper. It came zero'ed from the place I bought it from. Just some more experiences to share...

 

[nalioth]

Hey with the slant style muzzle brake (which I have) maybe affecting accuracy, what would be the best fix? Just taking it off? Replacing it with a ???? style brake?

Unless you're having bullet strikes on your slant brake, the brake isn't affecting accuracy.

I'd suggest taking the slant brake off and seeing if it makes a difference.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

We have gotten to a point now though where they aren't too much less reliable than AKs

 

[benEzra]

Unless you're having bullet strikes on your slant brake, the brake isn't affecting accuracy.

The brake doesn't hinder accuracy via bullet strikes. It hinders accuracy by causing the bullet to fly through a several-thousand-mph off-axis gas jet as the bullet transits the brake, a characteristic that is unique to the scoop-style slant brake. That off-axis gas jet, interacting with the typical hollow-base 7.62x39mm bullet, causes large transient yaw moments and resulting nutation, and the nutation opens up the groups.

The AK-74 style brake, as well as Western-style brakes, don't have this problem because they generally don't significantly disturb the flow field the bullet flies through. The slant brake does, badly (and it doesn't help the barrel harmonics, either).

Small Arms Review did AK accuracy testing a while back and found that the slant brake did indeed cause significantly larger groups. Is it the only factor? No, of course not, but it is a significant one.

Hey with the slant style muzzle brake (which I have) maybe affecting accuracy, what would be the best fix? Just taking it off? Replacing it with a ???? style brake?

Replacing it with pretty much any other type of muzzle brake should help. The slant brake is pretty much unique in the way it makes the bullet fly through the gas jet.

Here's one option:

http://www.yhm.net/store/muzzle.html

Another option, a little nicer but three times the price:

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/ProductImages/FSC47_L_1.jpg

For me, the AK recoil is mild enough that I'd rather have a flash suppressor than a brake anyway (and that way it's not so loud). But if you are shooting IPSC/USPSA and don't mind the noise, I can see where a brake could help with splits to some degree. Either of the above brakes will probably be more effective at reducing recoil than the slant brake, also.

For your rifle, it would be pretty simple to see if your brake is a significant contributor to group size with your ammunition of choice; simply push in the spring-loaded pin that keeps the brake from unscrewing (it pushes into the recess in the front of the front sight tower), and screw the brake off (note that it is a left hand thread, so it will screw off in the opposite direction you think it will). Then shoot it without the brake and see if your group size is affected; just be careful not to damage your threads or else you may have trouble getting the brake back on. If your main problem is sighting difficulties, poor benchrest technique, or craptastic ammunition, removing the brake may not help much, but if you have the other things down then you may see a difference.

 

[H2O MAN]

Another option is the DC Vortex flash hider from SEI... the sound suppressor reduces recoil and flash

 

[SHvar]

Last time I checked, the Marines (including the marine I spoke to today who was in Iraq recently) loved their M-16A2s and M-16A4s. The M-4s they recieved were given to another unit promptly (all but a few). Not one member of their units would dream of giving up an M-16 of any kind especially for an AK, to a marine giving up your M-16 is like committing suicide.
After all why do the SAS (Brittish and Australian), Israelis (some still have M-4s and M-16A2s which they have preferred for many years), and multiple other countries all choose the M-4 and M-16 as their rifle of choice, simply put it is more reliable and effective than their other options (AK, SA80, Steyr AUG, etc).

 

[BlackHand1917]

I disagree with Sunray's description of Russian troops as "illliterate conscripts." We Americans might be superior to the Russian people in many ways but the level of literacy in both the old Soviet Union and modern Russia among the "common folk" was and is superior to American levels of literacy.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The AK keeps running without regular cleaning and maintenance.

Not really. The AK is pretty rugged, but if you run them hard and neglect them they fail eventually. I've yet to do military training or take a civilian class where a bunch of AKs were present and at least a couple didn't hiccup during the course of 2-5 days of good range work (and very modest, at best, neglect by combat standards).

 

[JShirley]

The M-4s they recieved were given to another unit promptly (all but a few).

Hm. The Marine E4 at the ETT base next to our little ODA camp seemed to like the M4 (with ACOG) just fine. He was a fighting SOB, too. Put a tracer warning round between someone's legs at around 500 meters.

Just in time. We would have killed him immediately if he hadn't left.

H2O, are you able to use the same suppressor for M1A and AK?

J

 

[HorseSoldier]

The Marines I've occasionally worked with, co-used ranges with, and such, probably ran about 90% in favor of getting M4s to replace their 16s, from talking to them.

 

[Dan Crocker]

After all why do the SAS (Brittish and Australian), Israelis (some still have M-4s and M-16A2s which they have preferred for many years), and multiple other countries all choose the M-4 and M-16 as their rifle of choice, simply put it is more reliable and effective than their other options (AK, SA80, Steyr AUG, etc).

It all depends. I've rolled with SAS in Basrah for tactical questioning using G36s and again the next day gone out with NCIS and OSI using Mk18s. I've seen Marines at Um Qasr using AKs instead of their 16s because it's what they are training the Iraqi Navy with. You can generalize all you want, but there are always exceptions dependent upon the mission and personal preference.

 

[Uncle Mike]

Iraqi troops see their AK-47s as something losers use, while M16s and M4s are the weapons of winners.

See, I knew it... only loosers shoot AK's...Yea right! hehehe

On the negative side, the M16 requires more maintenance to prevent jamming. Many tests have been conducted on this subject, and it's quite clear that M16s have more jams, in dusty and sandy conditions, than do AK-47s.

.... now the AK's are better... I'm confused... oh my, what shall I do?... hehehe

The M16, in the hands of trained shooters, is more accurate than the AK-47

... now the M-16 is on top... somebody help...:banghead:

The M16 is also a more expensive rifle, costing about $600 each. The second hand AK-47s the Iraqis are now using are worth less than a hundred dollars.

...and the AK lands a devastating right punch to the wallet.... hell, a new Ak aint worth a hundred bucks... hehehe

Each Iraqi soldier that is issued an M16, has his name, fingerprints and retinal scan taken, as well as the serial number of the weapon

...I said damn... what's next... rectal scans over the M-16... hehehe

...Just being bad this AM... I do love both these rifles!

 

[danweasel]

benEzra, Thank you much for your help. I am kind of wary of spending money (besides the $200!! dollars on a rail and a red-dot) on my AK but I think I will pick up one of those brakes.

Anyways, about US forces carrying AKs, One of the guys in my unit carried a AK-74 around the Mosul Palace for a while. And we were SIGNAL! He told me he simply signed it out from somewhere or another.

 

[H2O MAN]

H2O, are you able to use the same suppressor for M1A and AK?

My single SEI M14DC 0.30 Caliber Sound Suppressor works equally well on all of my M14s as well as my lone AKM.