What powder is this?

[Newtosavage]

I've been trying for a few months now to match the performance and accuracy that my Ruger 7x57 rifle enjoys from the plain-old "green box" Remington ammo, to no avail. Someone suggested I pull a bullet and see how much and what kind of powder is in it. I finally bought a bullet puller (what a darn handy tool! Should have had one long ago.) and did just that.

Here's the powder I got out of it - 44 grains of this stuff.

Hodgdon lists H414 as a "ball" powder for the 7x57, and it's very close to the IMR 4350 I've had good luck with. From what I've been able to find online, this looks a lot like H414.

What do you think?

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[Newtosavage]

Found these online...

 

[Newtosavage]

This is a pretty useful website indeed...

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=38

 

[Walkalong]

Absolutely no way to tell for sure, but hey, get some H414 and try it out. What weight bullet was it under? How does Hodgdon's data match up with 44 Grs?

 

[ReloaderFred]

Ammunition factories use what's known as "bulk powder", and reloaders use what's known as "canister powders". The difference is that bulk powders are made within broad parameters of burn rate, while canister powders are made within narrow parameters of burn rate. Ammunition factories have ballistics labs, in which they can work up their loads for each bulk powder shipment they get, which can be tons of powder.

Trying to guess what powder is in factory ammunition isn't recommended. It may be a powder that isn't even available to reloaders, so the best you can do is take known data, with canister powders, and try to work up to the ballistics and accuracy of the factory ammunition. You'll sometimes never be able to attain the same velocity, but you'll usually be able to equal, or exceed, the factory accuracy.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[hdwhit]

Newtosavage wrote:
Someone suggested I pull a bullet and see how much and what kind of powder is in it.

Nobody can reliably identify powder from a visual inspection; particularly not the visual inspection of a photograph.

Trying to match a powder to samples of known commercial powders is pointless because the manufacurer may have used a powder that is not available commercially.

The way a load is developed is:

• Consult the powder manufacturers' web sites along with data books published by the component and equipment manufacturers for powders that will yield the performance you are looking for from the bullet(s) you want to use, and then
• Beginning with a concesus of the published data's starting load (or in the absence of a starting load reduce the maximum load by 10% to get a starting load) work up towards the maximum in small (0.1 - 0.2 grain) increments until you:
  • Get pressure signs. If this happens, it is time to stop adding powder and back down to a previous load, or
  • You reach a reliable, accurate load that doesn't give pressure signs.
• Do not exceed maximum.
• Keep a record of what you load and the results you got when you got at the range to help zero in on a desirable load.

Doing it any other way is asking for problems.

 

[Newtosavage]

LeverEvolution looks very close as well...

Absolutely no way to tell for sure, but hey, get some H414 and try it out. What weight bullet was it under? How does Hodgdon's data match up with 44 Grs?

Hodgdon's data puts 44 grains at the starting load for 140's, so it could be that. Of course Nosler data for the 7x57 is hotter, and lists 45 grains as the starting load for H414

 

[Newtosavage]

Nobody can reliably identify powder from a visual inspection; particularly not the visual inspection of a photograph.

Trying to match a powder to samples of known commercial powders is pointless because the manufacurer may have used a powder that is not available commercially.

The way a load is developed is:

• Consult the powder manufacturers' web sites along with data books published by the component and equipment manufacturers for powders that will yield the performance you are looking for from the bullet(s) you want to use, and then
• Beginning with a concesus of the published data's starting load (or in the absence of a starting load reduce the maximum load by 10% to get a starting load) work up towards the maximum in small (0.1 - 0.2 grain) increments until you:
  • Get pressure signs. If this happens, it is time to stop adding powder and back down to a previous load, or
  • You reach a reliable, accurate load that doesn't give pressure signs.
• Do not exceed maximum.
• Keep a record of what you load and the results you got when you got at the range to help zero in on a desirable load.

Doing it any other way is asking for problems.

Well it's good to know I've been doing it the right way all along.

I take very detailed notes, and no other cannister powder I've tried can come close to the velocity of the Remington factory load under a 140 grain bullet, and certainly not with just 44 grains of powder. I've matched the factory velocity with my hand loads, but it was with 48-50 grains of powder (IMR 4350, 4831, RL-19) - basically stuffing the case full and compressing the load. How they achieve the velocity they do with just 44 grains is beyond me.

 

[stringnut]

Not sure what velocity you are getting from the Remington ammo. When I had my Remington 700 in 7x57 velocity was about 2850 with a 139 great Hornady and 4350. Don't have my notes handy, but, it was near the top of the data in the Hornady manual. Accuracy was around 1.25.

 

[wally]

Hodgdon's data puts 44 grains at the starting load for 140's, so it could be that. Of course Nosler data for the 7x57 is hotter, and lists 45 grains as the starting load for H414

Exact same bullet, same OAL, same primer? It all can make small differences, 44 vs 45 is a 2.3% increase in starting charge.

How they achieve the velocity they do with just 44 grains is beyond me.

See above, factories can use "non-canister" powders not available for reloading.

 

[ReloaderFred]

" How they achieve the velocity they do with just 44 grains is beyond me."

That's the point I was making in post #5. They're using powders you can't get in most cases.

Fred

 

[Newtosavage]

My RSI only has a 18.5" barrel, so my velocities are often 100 fps + less than published velocities. With 140-grain bullets, I start seeing slight flattening of the primer around 2450 fps. But with the Remington ammo, there are not only no pressure signs, but it pushes the 140 Core-Lokt at 2550 fps. routinely. And that's very good from my gun.

 

[Newtosavage]

Exact same bullet, same OAL, same primer? It all can make small differences, 44 vs 45 is a 2.3% increase in starting charge.

See above, factories can use "non-canister" powders not available for reloading.

Unfortunately, the 140 Core-lokt in 7mm are no longer available. So I've been trying 140 Sierras and 139 Interlocks.

 

[Slamfire]

Does it have a mustard taste, or a pepper flavor?

 

[au_prospector]

Reloader Fred is spot on. Bulk powders and possibly a blend of powders and definitely proprietary. To seriously consider a guess is not a good idea IMO. Kind of fun I suppose to speculate, but that is all you will accomplish. I once tried it with a bulk pistol powder several years ago. My best guess was Bullseye and it ended up being CSB-1 a Spanish powder which is sporadically available these days.

 

[Newtosavage]

Does it have a mustard taste, or a pepper flavor?

LOL.

 

[Newtosavage]

I guess I don't understand the "not a good idea" comments. I can only buy canister powder, and I will only use what's listed for 7x57, in the published data. Why on earth would it not be a "good idea" to try and figure out which powder is closest to the factory powder? I never suggested I was going to mix powders or anything of the sort. Geez guys.

 

[Hondo 60]

The problem is, ammo mfgs get "proprietary" powder.
Not all, but some is stuff you & I cannot get our hands on.

And I looked at your powder pic. That didn't look like any powder I've used.

Good Luck!

 

[buck460XVR]

I guess I don't understand the "not a good idea" comments. I can only buy canister powder, and I will only use what's listed for 7x57, in the published data. Why on earth would it not be a "good idea" to try and figure out which powder is closest to the factory powder? I never suggested I was going to mix powders or anything of the sort. Geez guys.

I don't think folks are telling you it is foolish to try and match or better the performance of factory ammo, cause, that's whats handloading is all about. I think what they are trying to tell you is that it is foolish to try and identify what powder the factory uses just by appearance,especially since you may not be ale to purchase anything similar to compare it to.

 

[kingmt]

That's flattened ball powder done to increase its burn rate. What you've done is about as close as your going to get to find the powder. Factory ammo does get bulk powder that they ether test & load or blend with another powder to change the burn rate to where they believe they need it.

I've always noticed Remington to load in the higher pressure side. Likely higher then your going to find in a manual. If you find a powder you think it matches the best way to tell is dump the powder of 5 & load them to what the manual says then dump another 5 discarding the powder & load them with the known powder & shoot them across the chrono. If they match you found it.

Good luck. If I was trying to match factory ammo I'd look at some better ammo myself.

 

[Demi-human]

I have seen those FBI pictures. I wish they would have use the same lighting though all of them. As a complete novice I ask..... H110 is a magnum pistol powder, lower right picture, surely you're not thoughtfully considering it for 7 x57. (Reduced velocity loads?) Maybe just for visual comparison?

 

[Laphroaig]

Good luck in your quest.

When my 25-06 was new, I bought some green box 87 gr. hollow points primarily to get the brass. It gave outstanding accuracy with that rifle. I tried to duplicate it with handloads, but never could (I must admit I only tried a few bullet/powder combos). Soon I moved on to heavier bullets for deer hunting.

I found some Remington 87 grain component bullets in a bargain bin several years ago and intend to give them another try in that rifle. At least its on my list.

 

[Newtosavage]

That's flattened ball powder done to increase its burn rate. What you've done is about as close as your going to get to find the powder. Factory ammo does get bulk powder that they ether test & load or blend with another powder to change the burn rate to where they believe they need it.

I've always noticed Remington to load in the higher pressure side. Likely higher then your going to find in a manual. If you find a powder you think it matches the best way to tell is dump the powder of 5 & load them to what the manual says then dump another 5 discarding the powder & load them with the known powder & shoot them across the chrono. If they match you found it.

Good luck. If I was trying to match factory ammo I'd look at some better ammo myself.

If I could find ammo that shoots better out of my gun, I would. This stuff is sub-MOA at the highest velocity (for 140 grain) I've shot.

 

[Newtosavage]

I have seen those FBI pictures. I wish they would have use the same lighting though all of them. As a complete novice I ask..... H110 is a magnum pistol powder, lower right picture, surely you're not thoughtfully considering it for 7 x57. (Reduced velocity loads?) Maybe just for visual comparison?

Just for visual comparison.

What gets me is that this round is 150 fps faster than most of my loads with traditional powders, at 5-7 grains less of a charge.

 

[Newtosavage]

Incidentally, I've sinced discovered a hand load that could match the Rem. factory load for accuracy - a 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip traveling at 2750 fps. And for deer, I'm completely happy with that. However, I'd still like the extra punch the 140 delivers, if I can create it.