What powder is this?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Newtosavage, Feb 19, 2017.

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  1. morcey2

    morcey2 Member

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    If it's H414, it will have a nice, piquant after-dinner flavor, kind of like Palmolive. :D

    I've had really good luck with both AA4350 and H4350 in 7x57 with 139/140 gr bullets. One of my 7x57s has a 20" barrel and it absolutely hated Remington green box but loves PPU 139 gr. It also does well with 140 gr Ballistic tips. I just wish it had a longer barrel because it's losing about 200 fps to my other one. My other one is a Mexican mauser w/ a 24" barrel that eats up 120 gr BTs and 110 gr speer TNTs. It doesn't do as well with the heavier bullets, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to find an accurate load with the heavys.

    Matt
     
  2. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    I'm currently loading with IMR 4350, and it's giving me excellent groups both with 120 NBT's and 140 Sierras, however the velocity with the 140's is nowhere near what the Rem. 140's are, with much less powder.

    At 18.5" barrel, I need all the fps I can get out of a round.
     
  3. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    Just a thought, but with the short barrel you may want to move towards faster powders with the short barrel. Typically, you're gonna use less powder so that matches up with the relatively low amount used with the factory loads.

    I looked on a burn rate chart. The 414 was #206, the 4350 was about #216 IIRC.
     
  4. witchhunter

    witchhunter Member

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    Like many people have said, you cannot re-create a factory load. You can however, create one that shoots as well if you are willing to put forth the effort. You may have to try other bullets, powder, primers and brass, but it can be done.
     
  5. stringnut

    stringnut Member

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    Dug around and found my notes. My load was 52 grains of AA 4350 which is .4 under the Hornady max. 139 gr. Interlock. Velocity for 10 shot average was 2843. Didn't record the temperature.
     
  6. VThillman

    VThillman Member

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    All I can say is that the powder in your pic is the form called 'flattened spherical'. So-called 'ball' powder grains can be pretty much any shape. Your stuff also looks like it's double base, for the little that's worth.
     
  7. morcey2

    morcey2 Member

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    The same powder will give the best velocity whether the barrel is 18.5" or 26". All of the powder that is going to burn is converted to gas before the bullet has traveled more than an inch or two down the barrel. If you do a 2" or 75" barrels, it gets different but for rifle length barrels and rifle-speed powders, the rule applies. I'd go slower to something like H or IMR4831. The downside with an 18.5" barrel? Muzzle blast. Not only is the muzzle closer, but slower powders tend to have greater muzzle blast. I loaded up some 7.62x54R with H4350 specifically to "enhance" the already impressive muzzle blast from my M44s and M38. It worked quite nicely. :D

    Matt
     
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  8. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    This may sound like a silly question, but it's worth asking here: have you actually chronographed the factory ammo to see what velocity it attains in your gun, or are you just trying to match your load to what they have written on the box? The reason I ask is because difference in barrel length can make a big difference in velocity.

    Regardless, as others have said, there's a difference in powders between what we buy in a canister and what the big companies throw in a cartridge. It isn't that one is better than the other, it's just that one isn't a commercially available product you can find on the shelf.
     
  9. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    Yes. It gives me 2530 fps, which is a solid 100 fps faster than any 140-grain load I've been able to come up with so far, that doesn't show pressure signs. I can get 2530 with IMR 4350, but I have to drop nearly 50 grains in the case and the primers start to flatten.

    Think I'll try H414/W760 next and see if that doesn't do the trick. Prob. throw a magnum primer in there too.
     
  10. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    Why? What is the bullet doing that you don't like? What are you trying to make it so that the factory does & yours won't other then go faster?
     
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  11. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    ? I don't understand the question.

    If a factory 140 grain bullet can do 2500+ out of my rifle without pressure signs, why would I be happy with less than that from my handloads?

    The factory load is doing everything I could ask of it. But it's $35/box and very hard to find. Why on earth wouldn't I want to try and duplicate that? I guess I don't get it.
     
  12. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    If you can duplicate the accuracy and 2400 instead of 2500 will kill whatever game you are hunting just as well, would you be happy with that?
     
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  13. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    It's about bullet delivering a given amount of energy into a target & hitting the mark to me. As far as speed goes off course I want it to shoot as flat as possible as long as it doesn't concern the other two factors.

    If a bullet is traveling to fast it will expand more & I may not get the penatrating effect I need while going to slow may cause it to potentate to much delivering the energy into the ground.

    I really don't care how fast Jon's bullet is going. ;)
     
  14. Havok7416
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    Havok7416 Member

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    I will echo what has been said by Walkalong and kingmt above. If the bullets go where you want them, more velocity doesn't fix anything, it just wastes powder. An animal doesn't care about the speed of the bullet that kills it and a piece of paper even less so. Velocity doesn't always equal accuracy.
     
  15. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    You can't tell anything about a powder except the colour and shape of the grains by just looking at it. Even in Florida.
     
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  16. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I like that. I might still it. Lol
     
  17. DeadEye9

    DeadEye9 Member

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    It's usually hard to find exact powders that Factory ammo uses because they tend to get their own blends and load according to batch data. For the 7/57 Mauser though you can't go wrong with 4350, W760, or H414. Those three make some of the absolute hardest hitting, accurate and reliable/consistent loads you can get for that action, so there really isn't much need to look elsewhere from those three. Do some ladders with whatever bullets you like for your rifle with different charge weights and OALs and record what the rifle likes and doesn't like with whatever weight bullet your using and then once you find the "winning" combination for your intended purpose load up a bunch. If your going for a hunting load, it's hard to beat H414. My cousin and uncle each use their 414 hand loads with a 160gr (I believe) for deer with outstanding results. (Minimal tracking needed because they tend to just drop.) For accuracy/target loads I believe they stick with the 4350 and the W760 I believe is their recipe for duplicate "old fashion/military" loads.
     
  18. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    Looks like I'll be trying H414/W760 next.
     
  19. BrocLuno

    BrocLuno Member

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    That's where I'd go. I'll bet the factory load is slightly quicker than H414 ...

    I agree on trying to duplicate what you like. Faster and clean barrel, no big flash. Too bad it's so hard to find... But, now you have all the baseline numbers, and test powder is only a lb at a time :D
     
  20. Sauer Grapes

    Sauer Grapes Member

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    It's black powder silly. Next question? :rofl:
     
  21. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    Look at their seating depth. Bet you find the difference. ;)
     
  22. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    ^^^^^^^^^^ if you matched the velocity, was it acceptable enough for accuracy? If not, did you play with seating depth? If so, where's the problem? If you're matching speed and accuracy, then worrying about the extra powder is just headaches better spent on bigger problems.
     
  23. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    I matched velocity and seating depth, but no, it was nowhere near the accuracy of the Rem. factory load. Plus it was a compressed load, which I guess I'm not a big fan of. The pressure signs were definitely more obvious too.

    I'm going to try the 414/760 and see what that gets me. At this point, since I have a good deer load (using 120 NBT's) that tracks with my scope, I'm not really in any hurry to match the 140 factory load. But it is a project that I hope to complete someday.
     
  24. thump_rrr

    thump_rrr Member

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    If you still can't get that velocity you can move up to something in the range of IMR 4064 or IMR 4895.
     
  25. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    I tried 4895 in my 7x57 when I first got it. I'll have to go back and review my notes, but I passed on it early as a suitable powder, I think because of the low velocities it gave. I used it a lot when I had a .308 as it was very accurate and versatile.
     
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