Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What should I look fr in an AR?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Matt Dillon, Mar 15, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Girodin

    Girodin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,565
    Oh and a straw man argument is a type of argument not an argument per se. I'm not sure what you even are trying to suggest was a straw man argument or what straw man, the class of people you refer to uses as their favorite argument(s).
     
  2. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,378
    I agree completely. I apologize for not keeping things High Road. I have a poor agenda and have made malicious comments for which I apologize. There is no other way my words can be read other than your interpretation Girodin, you read right through me. I now realize none of your comments were directed at me.

    To the OP, Larry Vickers chooses Daniel Defense, he said so on the TV and his opinion and credentials are well respected by me and I'm sure others as well, though I cannot speak for anyone else it seems. Also, it seems adding defensive use to your plans means something wholly different that I fail to comprehend about only some brands being good enough.

    Now I really am finished.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  3. Krusty783

    Krusty783 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    West of the Missisippi
    I wasn't insulting your post, I was just making note that this is another generic "Which AR Should I Get/is best?" that had devolved into a off-topic argument.

    Unfortunately, people tend to project their own opinions while trying to give advice to the OP and this inevitably leads to counter-opinions, etc.
     
  4. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,369
    Fair enough. Sorry I misinterpreted.

    I agree, they seem to inevitably devolve. Since the OP worded his post, "what to look for in an AR?" it's only a matter of time before the chart gets brought up. I think we are on the same page that it is a nice little summary of what IS mil-spec, but that it is more prudent to learn about the requirements the military demands and apply them to your own situation, than to just offer wholesale tier-based advice. And the OP should not panic if his future AR lacks the right twist or something.
     
  5. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Buying a rifle that turns out to have a barrel ill-suited to your intended use would really suck though.

    Nobody who buys a 1/9 twist, hoping to be able to shoot 75-77gr [match] rounds from time to time for the most accuracy possible, is going to be happy when they find out that the right twist rate, for them, was actually the [generally more expensive] 1/7
     
  6. MasterSergeantA

    MasterSergeantA Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    613
    Location:
    Arizona Territory
    And don't forget to look at www.ar15.com as well as the m4carbine site. A lot of drama and a few purse fights sometimes (sometimes?) but also a lot of good information. Just bring your boots and be prepared to wade through the drivel to find the good info.
     
  7. Girodin

    Girodin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,565
    He endorsed Daniel Defense, and was paid by them for some time. His business connections seem to be shifting to BCM as of late. His recommendations are, however, broader, as seen here (at the time he was still affiliated with DD).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

    Its important to note he says these are what he regularly recommends, not the entire universe of what is serviceable.
     
  8. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,369
    Definitely. Which is why my suggestion has always been to study the mil specs and understand why they are there. I meant "right" as in mil-spec, 1:7, somewhat facetiously. If he gets a 1:9 twist barrel, it is not "wrong." No need to panic. It isn't wrong per se. It just isn't the mil-spec. If he wants to shoot 77gr bullets he will have problems, yes. Of course he will need the proper twist for intended use. Since he wrote "What do I need to know to purchase an average quality ar for range, a little hunting, and the rare need for self defense?" I did not get the impression he was after match-grade accuracy. The vast majority of affordable ammo for his intended uses are in the 55gr-69gr range anyway, therefore a 1:9 twist shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
     
  9. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    In my experience a lot of people buy based on price without much knowledge to what they are getting, or why, and end up wanting to be able to make use of 75gr ammunition.

    He did list self defense. A lot of the better/more popular defensive options are 75gr bullets.

    My point is that the twist rate of the barrel is a significant aspect of the rifle, and, further, that IME most people would benefit from a 1/7 twist.
     
  10. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,369
    For match accuracy at longer ranges, definitely nicer to have the faster twist, for self-defense ranges and accuracy requirements, even with 75gr bullets, 1:9 will probably suffice.

    http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=410296
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/213968_75Gr_TAP_out_of__16andamp__34__1_9_twist_barrel_.html
    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=276703
    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=550041

    If he gets a 1:9 and tries 75gr and they keyhole at 100 yards, he can just use 69gr. Or be satisfied with key-holing the bad guy!
     
  11. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Why settle?

    Everybody can choose what they want, why they want...but for me, personally, I wouldn't spend so much time and energy figuring out which corners can be cut that will each only negatively impact the performance of the rifle in a "it will probably suffice" manner. I'd just get something that will work, optimally, period.
     
  12. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,369
    Again:

    I just said 1:9 shouldn't be a deal breaker for his criteria. Yes, it MIGHT have issues with 75gr bullets, (but obviously by my links several people's 1:9 rifles shoot them just fine) but it may also be better for lighter varmint bullets. All I've really done is suggest to the OP that he learn about the mil-spec requirements so he can make an educated decision in his purchase, and to not get bogged down in tiers and brand-bashing, or buying certain brands just based on reputation alone. I never said he is wasting money to get a Colt or DD or BCM, but he is also not throwing money away buying a Stag, PSA, S&W, Spikes, DPMS or BM.
     
  13. Girodin

    Girodin Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,565
    He lists hunting as a criteria. He didn't say what he was planning on hunting, it could be game in which a heavier bullet is desired or it could be quarry for which a higher BC bullet is desired. Without knowing what he wants to hunt I would hesitate to say whether it not a 1:9 twist should or shouldn't be a deal breaker.

    There are 1:9 twist guns that shoot some heavier bullets (in reality that issue is shape more than weight) okay. It obviously is not all guns with all bullets though. I don't think anyone would seriously recommend getti g a 1:9 and hoping for the best if one knows going in that he or she wants to shoot the longer bullets.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  14. WinThePennant

    WinThePennant Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,136
    Location:
    Earth
    Asking what AR is the best is...well, impossible. There are so many types and variants that it is dang near impossible.

    For a budget AR, I always recommend the S&W Sport. Probably the best AR for the money.

    I typically build my lower, and then buy my upper.

    Here's what I ALWAYS do for each. Yes, these reflect my own biases.

    Always buy 7075 aluminum for buffer tubes and charging handles. It's a lot stronger than the 6061 stuff.

    Mil-Spec triggers are fine. Always use KNS anti-rotation pins.

    Use the Stag Arms Lower Parts Kit. I really think it's the best one for the money.

    Most lower receivers (aluminum) are very good. Don't overspend on this.

    Make sure your bolt carrier is MP and HPI tested and full auto.

    For carbine or mid-length rifles, always get the M4 feed ramps. Visually inspect to make sure they are lined up correctly.

    I prefer chrome-lined rifle barrels that are cold hammer forged.

    I prefer mid-length. But, there is nothing wrong with carbine-length ARs. In fact, parts for them are easier to find since the mid-length stuff is all the rage these days.

    The advantages of a 1-in-7 twist are so numerous that I don't understand why people get anything else. Everyone says 1-in-7 is only good for heavy grain bullets. The truth is that it handles 55 just fine, and can handle the really heavy stuff with no problems. 1-in-7 is King of the Hill for AR twist rates.

    Stick with the A2 front sight.

    Don't overspend on aluminum handguards. There are some VERY nice inexpensive handguards available now. The cheaper aluminum handguards are a little heavier, but are still surprisingly good. UTG comes to mind. Or, better yet, get a Magpul poly handguard for around $30.

    Free float is over-rated.

    Tapco makes a surprisingly good sling adapter.

    Staking your castle nut is over-rated.
     
  15. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    IME the majority (not all, just the majority) fall into one of two categories:

    A) Didn't know what they were buying when they bought it

    B) Price. Cheaper = better
     
  16. Torian

    Torian Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,015
    You should look for an AR with the name COLT on it.

    :)
     
  17. Matt Dillon

    Matt Dillon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Thanks so very much for all the advice that has been given in this thread! I still have a lot of research to do but you all have given me a great deal to think about.
     
  18. nathan

    nathan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    5,067
    Make sure you are ready to spend bucko money on 5.56 ammo. They aint getting cheap now.
     
  19. Longrifle2506

    Longrifle2506 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Ohio River Valley
    A Huge retailer near me has 2 or 3 Rock River arms models for $1150; and an M&P 15 for the same price. That's actually normal prices; my Coyote Carbine cost $1150 over 2 years ago. But a smaller gun store owner in the area wants $1800 for the same M&P 15. The Big retailer is also a law enforcement supplier; But these were in the civilian retail part of the store; The outfit is called "Orion Arms" and they have a website with a phone number if you are interested in seeing if they will sell and ship one to you. www.orionarmscorp.com
    They had plenty of other makes and models I'm sure. I was there just two weeks ago.
     
  20. mach1.3

    mach1.3 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    176
    I don't know very much about AR15s other than I like to shoot mine. I have a standard M4 Bushmaster which I purchased six years ago. I put a Nikon scope on it, have had the front sight removed and replaced the gas block. I also have a bipod/forend handle. It seems to shoot a variety of ammo well. I have it zeroed for 100 yards and have killed several pigs with it. I put only about 60-80 rounds down range every month or two. I'm happy but yet I don't shoot competitively. I probably have several thousand rounds for it---so I'm not looking to sell or trade it. As to the rate of twist???
     
  21. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,225
    Location:
    Missouri
    Build it.

    Find reputable, build worthy parts manufacturers and start hitting up the parts list.

    Get it the way you want it, built by you, with the options you need.


    Downside, no warranty.:(
     
  22. YZ

    YZ member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,066
    Location:
    Midwest
    Shoulder it and check the balance. Some rifles are great otherwise but nose heavy. Pistons add some weight but keep the action cleaner. Don't fall for a "bull" barrel, you don't need it unless you plan to shoot from a rest. Buy your rifle bare as could be, you can add the barnacles later. Don't worry about the trigger, if it is mil-spec heavy, you can buy a drop-in DIY upgrade. Avoid paint jobs, they resell poorly.
     
  23. B!ngo

    B!ngo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    781
    Excellent advice. Well done.
    FWIW, though I've been happy with my selection(s), I would have appreciated a note like this before I first bought an AR years back. Although sadly perhaps only one on your list makes a left-handed model, which is a priority for me.
    The only thing I can add is a small tweak to an earlier post about the preferred 1:8 twist. I am convinced that it is the best balance between twist rates and bullet weight optimization. It is also a rare spec for current builds and shouldn't be a significant criteria for a first time buyer. 1:7, 1:9 will all seem the same near term.
    B
     
  24. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Why 1/8 over 1/7?

    Don't get a 1/9 if you want to make effective or optimal use of many of the premium/match grade/defensive rounds out there in the 75-77gr range
     
  25. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,225
    Location:
    Missouri
    1/8 is a good compromise.

    While I agree 1/7 stabilizes the heavier match and "deer killer" bullets, the 1/8 does too. It will also shoot lighter bullets more accurately due to not over spinning them. Not a huge deal for SD/HD though.

    1/9 is OK, nothing really wrong other than larger groups with the heavy hitters, but it'll still spin pills in the mid to high 60s accurately. Plus, you can go sub 55 gr without recourse.

    If you are like me, 1/8 is the way to go.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page