What should I look fr in an AR?

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It seems the straw man is the favorite argument of

Oh and a straw man argument is a type of argument not an argument per se. I'm not sure what you even are trying to suggest was a straw man argument or what straw man, the class of people you refer to uses as their favorite argument(s).
 
I agree completely. I apologize for not keeping things High Road. I have a poor agenda and have made malicious comments for which I apologize. There is no other way my words can be read other than your interpretation Girodin, you read right through me. I now realize none of your comments were directed at me.

To the OP, Larry Vickers chooses Daniel Defense, he said so on the TV and his opinion and credentials are well respected by me and I'm sure others as well, though I cannot speak for anyone else it seems. Also, it seems adding defensive use to your plans means something wholly different that I fail to comprehend about only some brands being good enough.

Now I really am finished.
 
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So you insult my post and then proceed to essentially say the same thing?

OP, before this thread gets closed, to reiterate again: learn about the mil-specs and what/why they are there, buy the best rifle (by "tier" or what-have-you) that you can reasonably afford but make it an informed decision and don't just buy solely for a name. And most of all, whatever you get, shoot it a lot and learn everything there is to know about it, so that every action is second-nature to you.

I wasn't insulting your post, I was just making note that this is another generic "Which AR Should I Get/is best?" that had devolved into a off-topic argument.

Unfortunately, people tend to project their own opinions while trying to give advice to the OP and this inevitably leads to counter-opinions, etc.
 
I wasn't insulting your post, I was just making note that this is another generic "Which AR Should I Get/is best?" that had devolved into a off-topic argument.

Unfortunately, people tend to project their own opinions while trying to give advice to the OP and this inevitably leads to counter-opinions, etc.

Fair enough. Sorry I misinterpreted.

I agree, they seem to inevitably devolve. Since the OP worded his post, "what to look for in an AR?" it's only a matter of time before the chart gets brought up. I think we are on the same page that it is a nice little summary of what IS mil-spec, but that it is more prudent to learn about the requirements the military demands and apply them to your own situation, than to just offer wholesale tier-based advice. And the OP should not panic if his future AR lacks the right twist or something.
 
And the OP should not panic if his future AR lacks the right twist or something.

Buying a rifle that turns out to have a barrel ill-suited to your intended use would really suck though.

Nobody who buys a 1/9 twist, hoping to be able to shoot 75-77gr [match] rounds from time to time for the most accuracy possible, is going to be happy when they find out that the right twist rate, for them, was actually the [generally more expensive] 1/7
 
Thanks so much, guys; you've given me quite a bit to think about, and I will be going over to the other forum to check it out, per your suggestion.
And don't forget to look at www.ar15.com as well as the m4carbine site. A lot of drama and a few purse fights sometimes (sometimes?) but also a lot of good information. Just bring your boots and be prepared to wade through the drivel to find the good info.
 
To the OP, Larry Vickers chooses Daniel Defense

He endorsed Daniel Defense, and was paid by them for some time. His business connections seem to be shifting to BCM as of late. His recommendations are, however, broader, as seen here (at the time he was still affiliated with DD).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

Its important to note he says these are what he regularly recommends, not the entire universe of what is serviceable.
 
Buying a rifle that turns out to have a barrel ill-suited to your intended use would really suck though.

Nobody who buys a 1/9 twist, hoping to be able to shoot 75-77gr [match] rounds from time to time for the most accuracy possible, is going to be happy when they find out that the right twist rate, for them, was actually the [generally more expensive] 1/7

Definitely. Which is why my suggestion has always been to study the mil specs and understand why they are there. I meant "right" as in mil-spec, 1:7, somewhat facetiously. If he gets a 1:9 twist barrel, it is not "wrong." No need to panic. It isn't wrong per se. It just isn't the mil-spec. If he wants to shoot 77gr bullets he will have problems, yes. Of course he will need the proper twist for intended use. Since he wrote "What do I need to know to purchase an average quality ar for range, a little hunting, and the rare need for self defense?" I did not get the impression he was after match-grade accuracy. The vast majority of affordable ammo for his intended uses are in the 55gr-69gr range anyway, therefore a 1:9 twist shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
 
In my experience a lot of people buy based on price without much knowledge to what they are getting, or why, and end up wanting to be able to make use of 75gr ammunition.

He did list self defense. A lot of the better/more popular defensive options are 75gr bullets.

My point is that the twist rate of the barrel is a significant aspect of the rifle, and, further, that IME most people would benefit from a 1/7 twist.
 
He did list self defense. A lot of the better/more popular defensive options are 75gr bullets.

For match accuracy at longer ranges, definitely nicer to have the faster twist, for self-defense ranges and accuracy requirements, even with 75gr bullets, 1:9 will probably suffice.

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=410296
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/213968_75Gr_TAP_out_of__16andamp__34__1_9_twist_barrel_.html
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=276703
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=550041

If he gets a 1:9 and tries 75gr and they keyhole at 100 yards, he can just use 69gr. Or be satisfied with key-holing the bad guy!
 
For match accuracy at longer ranges, definitely nicer to have the faster twist, for self-defense ranges and accuracy requirements, even with 75gr bullets, 1:9 will probably suffice.

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=410296
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/213968_75Gr_TAP_out_of__16andamp__34__1_9_twist_barrel_.html
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=276703
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=550041

If he gets a 1:9 and tries 75gr and they keyhole at 100 yards, he can just use 69gr. Or be satisfied with key-holing the bad guy!

Why settle?

Everybody can choose what they want, why they want...but for me, personally, I wouldn't spend so much time and energy figuring out which corners can be cut that will each only negatively impact the performance of the rifle in a "it will probably suffice" manner. I'd just get something that will work, optimally, period.
 
Why settle?

Everybody can choose what they want, why they want...but for me, personally, I wouldn't spend so much time and energy figuring out which corners can be cut that will each only negatively impact the performance of the rifle in a "it will probably suffice" manner. I'd just get something that will work, optimally, period.

Again:

What do I need to know to purchase an average quality ar for range, a little hunting, and the rare need for self defense?

I just said 1:9 shouldn't be a deal breaker for his criteria. Yes, it MIGHT have issues with 75gr bullets, (but obviously by my links several people's 1:9 rifles shoot them just fine) but it may also be better for lighter varmint bullets. All I've really done is suggest to the OP that he learn about the mil-spec requirements so he can make an educated decision in his purchase, and to not get bogged down in tiers and brand-bashing, or buying certain brands just based on reputation alone. I never said he is wasting money to get a Colt or DD or BCM, but he is also not throwing money away buying a Stag, PSA, S&W, Spikes, DPMS or BM.
 
He lists hunting as a criteria. He didn't say what he was planning on hunting, it could be game in which a heavier bullet is desired or it could be quarry for which a higher BC bullet is desired. Without knowing what he wants to hunt I would hesitate to say whether it not a 1:9 twist should or shouldn't be a deal breaker.

There are 1:9 twist guns that shoot some heavier bullets (in reality that issue is shape more than weight) okay. It obviously is not all guns with all bullets though. I don't think anyone would seriously recommend getti g a 1:9 and hoping for the best if one knows going in that he or she wants to shoot the longer bullets.
 
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Asking what AR is the best is...well, impossible. There are so many types and variants that it is dang near impossible.

For a budget AR, I always recommend the S&W Sport. Probably the best AR for the money.

I typically build my lower, and then buy my upper.

Here's what I ALWAYS do for each. Yes, these reflect my own biases.

Always buy 7075 aluminum for buffer tubes and charging handles. It's a lot stronger than the 6061 stuff.

Mil-Spec triggers are fine. Always use KNS anti-rotation pins.

Use the Stag Arms Lower Parts Kit. I really think it's the best one for the money.

Most lower receivers (aluminum) are very good. Don't overspend on this.

Make sure your bolt carrier is MP and HPI tested and full auto.

For carbine or mid-length rifles, always get the M4 feed ramps. Visually inspect to make sure they are lined up correctly.

I prefer chrome-lined rifle barrels that are cold hammer forged.

I prefer mid-length. But, there is nothing wrong with carbine-length ARs. In fact, parts for them are easier to find since the mid-length stuff is all the rage these days.

The advantages of a 1-in-7 twist are so numerous that I don't understand why people get anything else. Everyone says 1-in-7 is only good for heavy grain bullets. The truth is that it handles 55 just fine, and can handle the really heavy stuff with no problems. 1-in-7 is King of the Hill for AR twist rates.

Stick with the A2 front sight.

Don't overspend on aluminum handguards. There are some VERY nice inexpensive handguards available now. The cheaper aluminum handguards are a little heavier, but are still surprisingly good. UTG comes to mind. Or, better yet, get a Magpul poly handguard for around $30.

Free float is over-rated.

Tapco makes a surprisingly good sling adapter.

Staking your castle nut is over-rated.
 
The advantages of a 1-in-7 twist are so numerous that I don't understand why people get anything else.

IME the majority (not all, just the majority) fall into one of two categories:

A) Didn't know what they were buying when they bought it

B) Price. Cheaper = better
 
Thanks so very much for all the advice that has been given in this thread! I still have a lot of research to do but you all have given me a great deal to think about.
 
Make sure you are ready to spend bucko money on 5.56 ammo. They aint getting cheap now.
 
A Huge retailer near me has 2 or 3 Rock River arms models for $1150; and an M&P 15 for the same price. That's actually normal prices; my Coyote Carbine cost $1150 over 2 years ago. But a smaller gun store owner in the area wants $1800 for the same M&P 15. The Big retailer is also a law enforcement supplier; But these were in the civilian retail part of the store; The outfit is called "Orion Arms" and they have a website with a phone number if you are interested in seeing if they will sell and ship one to you. www.orionarmscorp.com
They had plenty of other makes and models I'm sure. I was there just two weeks ago.
 
I don't know very much about AR15s other than I like to shoot mine. I have a standard M4 Bushmaster which I purchased six years ago. I put a Nikon scope on it, have had the front sight removed and replaced the gas block. I also have a bipod/forend handle. It seems to shoot a variety of ammo well. I have it zeroed for 100 yards and have killed several pigs with it. I put only about 60-80 rounds down range every month or two. I'm happy but yet I don't shoot competitively. I probably have several thousand rounds for it---so I'm not looking to sell or trade it. As to the rate of twist???
 
Build it.

Find reputable, build worthy parts manufacturers and start hitting up the parts list.

Get it the way you want it, built by you, with the options you need.


Downside, no warranty.:(
 
Folks, I have never owned an AR, but when the current craziness dies down,I would like to pick one up. There seems to be many options, such as various twist rates, I guess for various projectile weights. And different uppers and lowers. What do I need to know to purchase an average quality ar for range, a little hunting, and the rare need for self defense? Thanks in advance for your help!
Shoulder it and check the balance. Some rifles are great otherwise but nose heavy. Pistons add some weight but keep the action cleaner. Don't fall for a "bull" barrel, you don't need it unless you plan to shoot from a rest. Buy your rifle bare as could be, you can add the barnacles later. Don't worry about the trigger, if it is mil-spec heavy, you can buy a drop-in DIY upgrade. Avoid paint jobs, they resell poorly.
 
One of the main things to consider when taking advice or opinions on ARs (and any other gear) is the experience of the person giving the recommendation. Many people will tell you I have X brand AR and it has been 100% reliable. That sounds well and good at first brush. However, it is a pretty meaningless statement. 100%, to use an extreme, example could mean they have fired 1 round and it went bang. I've often found that if I ask a few more questions, some of these folks are in fact referring to guns that they have merely fired a few hundred rounds from. Furthermore, these statements typically provide no context for the conditions of use. Even thousands of rounds tells us very little if they were slow fired round, maybe 25 or so in a range trip and a good cleaning and oiling between each trip. X brand may run like a top when subjected to such use. Screw a suppressor on it and run it through a three day 1500 round carbine course and the warts might start to show. Shoot a years worth of three gun and it might be a different story.

You may not intend to shoot suppressed, or shoot a couple thousand rounds in a weekend, or use the rifle for defense and that is fine. However, it is nice to know what a recommendation is based on. In my humble opinion someone shooting a few hundred rounds casually on a square range under ideal conditions says nothing about a gun.

A further problem is that many people simply don't have experience with a large enough sampling of guns to give very meaningful input. This is why I tend to value the opinions of those that see a lot of guns and a lot of rounds fired every year under varying conditions. These people include competitive shooters, carbine course instructors, and even some individuals that get out and shoot a lot. An example, Travis Haley at one point stated that he shoots around 100,000 rounds a year. In addition he probably teaches about ten open carbine courses a year (he likely does more training for others as well). These class tend to have 25-30 students I'd imagine based on my experience. They are typically 1200 round classes. That's about 36,000 rounds fired during the class by students. That's 360,000 rounds over ten classes taught. In sum, that is a guy who probably sees north of 500,000 rounds fired a year through hundred of different guns, in semi trying conditions, by lots of different people. He has been doing that for a lot of years now. That is an opinion that is slightly more informed and meaningful than, my brand x has been 100%. The same is true for guys like Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Costa, etc, etc. If you ask these guys they will tell you that some brands consistently fair better in terms of reliability and durability in their classes, particularly when guns have suppressors. Certain brands have earned their reputations. It really is not simply that folks want to spend more, or buy cool guy gear.

To my mind their is simply not enough price difference between well proven brands that do not cut corners in the manufacturing and assembly process and the others to worry about buying a lesser gun. Over the life time of a gun, what is a couple hundred dollars?

When you list defense as an intended role it will change what many people will consider an advisable gun. This is true of both brands and configurations.

As to my recommendations I agree with the above advice to do some reading at M4Carbine.net. There are many very knowledgeable posters. it can also give you some context for, and additional information about, the spreadsheet linked to above. Those things make it a more useful tool IMHO.

When I recommend guns to friends and family as well as buy for myself I stick to the following brands:

Noveske

BCM

LaRue

Colt

Daniel Defense

Not all of these offer the same "value" IMHO, but they are all pretty well proven guns. For a general use gun you are unlikely to regret buying a gun from any of them. You ask for an "average quality" gun. Their are so many makers of ARs it is hard to quantify what average quality is. However, to me it would be a basic mil spec gun. Some guns, for example offerings from LaRue and Noveske, are not mil spec but IMHO exceed mil spec guns in certain respects. To put it another way to me Mil spec is a floor for a defense gun. It is not a ceiling and it can and is exceeded by some makers in certain respects. Your average comments make me thing that something like a basic colt or BCM is probably more up your alley than a LaRue, KAC, or Noveske in terms of price. Which I pick among the listed brand really depends on, price, specific intended uses and preferences (for example if accuracy was my biggest concern with longer distance shooting being a main use I'd get a LaRue). These days I typically buy Noveskes.



I also have one PSA gun. Given the price ($600) it was too good to pass. I think PSA is a brand that is building a good reputation but is not as proven as some of the others. I will say given the very limited use, around 1K arounds in a few outings, I've put through the PSA I've been happy thus far. PSA is my recommendation when price is someones number one criteria. However, the price of PSA guns have been creeping upwards along with their blossoming reputation. They have of course had some hiccups but their response and correction of those teething problems seemed to be appropriate from what I saw.
Excellent advice. Well done.
FWIW, though I've been happy with my selection(s), I would have appreciated a note like this before I first bought an AR years back. Although sadly perhaps only one on your list makes a left-handed model, which is a priority for me.
The only thing I can add is a small tweak to an earlier post about the preferred 1:8 twist. I am convinced that it is the best balance between twist rates and bullet weight optimization. It is also a rare spec for current builds and shouldn't be a significant criteria for a first time buyer. 1:7, 1:9 will all seem the same near term.
B
 
Excellent advice. Well done.
FWIW, though I've been happy with my selection(s), I would have appreciated a note like this before I first bought an AR years back. Although sadly perhaps only one on your list makes a left-handed model, which is a priority for me.
The only thing I can add is a small tweak to an earlier post about the preferred 1:8 twist. I am convinced that it is the best balance between twist rates and bullet weight optimization. It is also a rare spec for current builds and shouldn't be a significant criteria for a first time buyer. 1:7, 1:9 will all seem the same near term.
B

Why 1/8 over 1/7?

Don't get a 1/9 if you want to make effective or optimal use of many of the premium/match grade/defensive rounds out there in the 75-77gr range
 
1/8 is a good compromise.

While I agree 1/7 stabilizes the heavier match and "deer killer" bullets, the 1/8 does too. It will also shoot lighter bullets more accurately due to not over spinning them. Not a huge deal for SD/HD though.

1/9 is OK, nothing really wrong other than larger groups with the heavy hitters, but it'll still spin pills in the mid to high 60s accurately. Plus, you can go sub 55 gr without recourse.

If you are like me, 1/8 is the way to go.
 
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