what specs for a "peoples AR"

[s&w 24]

Soo Alot of people are liking the idea of area AR build partys. For this to work we need A) willing hands and B) parts. The goal of the build partys is low cost AR's in the hands of alot of people.

What do you all think is a good way to go for specs on the "peoples" AR. I would like to go with a 16" light weight crome lined barrel, A1 upper, and the rest all stock and without a butt stock in the parts kit so the end user picks up a stock and buffer assembly of the choice and a lower and were good to go.

If we can first nail down what the specs are and how many then We'll get a group buy together for the build kits. DPMS said that it all depends on how many kits on price I can also talk to other disributors for ball park prices

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I know that everyone is big into the flat-top AR-15s, but as a "people's AR", I'd agree with the A1 sight.

If you go flattop, you're looking at another $50 _minimum_ just to get some sort of rear sight going.

You can always rig various optics onto an A1 handle through goosenecks, etc. And if you have the kind of money to drop on an ACOG, you can probably afford a new upper anyway.

While you're arranging cheap deals anyway, might as well go ahead and help folks buy the lowers separately (to avoid excise tax) and add in a basic-quality adjustable stock. With a 16" barrel, I imagine the majority of folks are going to want an adjustable stock.

Mid-length would be a nice plus, but not if it adds much more cost.

My vote:

1) 16" A1-sighted upper (how much does chrome add to the price?)
2) Lower with basic collapsible stock

Buy the two separately, snap them together in 5 seconds, move on with your life.

-MV

 

[THE OUTPATIENT]

A people's AR-15 series for mass. prod...IMHO

Interesting question...my take:

1. The older GI skinny barrels in 1 in 12 twist had the most devestating terminal ballistics of any of the AR-15 series when using traditional mil-spec 55 grain M-193 loads. Just take a look at the numerous articles on this subject and compalints about knock down wi the SS-109 round in Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The 20 inch barrels are still available new, in the white, and for cheap, and have a bayonet lug, too.

2. A2 style upper recievers are not that much more expensive that the A1 style, but in practice the short effective range of the 5.56mm round means you could do satifactorily with an A1 upper if the shooters get good 25 yard zeros and then practice. So I'd use an A1.

3. Stag lowers are cheap and get good reviews. I think they may be a supplier to other M-16/AR-15 manufacturers, so they are mil. spec (again, heard/read, no confirmation here).

4. Use a full length A2 stock for better eye relief. CAR collapsibles add too much cost, and unless you are 100% vehicular, airborne, or beaming into enclosed spaces in Klingon vessels for CQB (this happens more often than people realize), you should remove one less element to go wrong by having a collapsible either fail to extend or be failed to extend by the operator in a crisis.

5. Use A2 style handguards for better grip.

6. Use internals and bolt carrier assemblies from any of the major manufacturers. The bolt carrier is critical; this is not a place to scrimp and save.

IMHO

OP

 

[Onmilo]

I agree with you guys on the definition of a VolksAR
I will add a bolt assist because folks are going to insist on using cheap poly or laquer coated steel case ammunition
I am a fan of a chrome lined heavy twenty inch barrel 1 in 9 twist to allow the use of about all bullet weights and because a lot of shooters don't clean regularly the chrome barrels are easier to clean when the guys do get around to it.
Better velocity from a 20" and a longer sight platform too.
Straight stock better than collapsable in my opinion and it gives a guy a place to store a Boresnake, a bottle of CLP and a sight adjustment tool.

Probably should have an A2 square post front sight but I find the A1 round post work just fine out to 300 meters and most people won't shoot these rifles any farther than that anyway.

A2 handguards are just fine, they even nestle comfortably on the bench bag.

New style 20 round curved magazines should be the norm, they are reliable and hold one box of ammunition perfectly.
Of course, as shown, 30 round boxes and Beta C mag 100 shot mags could be used too,,,,
I mainly use 20 shot straight side magazines at the range because I like to nestle the rifle with my weak hand supporting the magazine when offhand shooting and stright sides work great for this shooting form.

My favorite bolt/carrier assemblies are Smith Enterprise complete chromed but since we are keeping this affordable let's just allow chrome lined carrier and chrome lined gas key.
Cleaning is easy and they seem to last forever, nice thing on a peoples rifle.

 

[Jeremy2171]

You have several options..here are some of mine....

 

[Glockfan.45]

16" A1-sighted upper (how much does chrome add to the price?)

It adds around $40 or so to the price.

My vote goes for a 16" chrome lined, light barrel, 1/9 twist. If this were a AR built for the masses then chome lining is valuble to the savages that will not clean their bores frequently, and 1/9 is a good compromise twist rate.

I would opt for the A2 sights on a standard carry handle since they are simple to dial in (screwing with bullet tips is a PITA on the A1). "Goose Neck" mounts would come in the kit for those who desire to add optics.

For furniture I would go with the M4 6 pos telestock, carbine hand guards, and A2 pistol grip. I know quite a few people that do not care for the thick M4 handguards one bit. The M4 stock however gives better cheek weld than the skinny old style unit. I would issue them each with 7 thirty round magazines, and a sling. How great would it be if Uncle Sam issued a rifle like that to every citizen?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Volksgewehr. I love it.



Could someone smarter than me write all this up into a set of instructions?

 

[mcmoyer]

You have several options..here are some of mine....

Like the slickside uppers, do ya?

Some nice looking rifles you have there.

 

[2TransAms]

Glockfan got it right,except I'd want the M4 handguards. Other than that,just your basic M4 A2. The average joe,including me,doesn't need all the tactical doo-dads and whiz-bangs.

 

[DMK]

While I prefer an A1 upper, there isn't really anything wrong with an A2 upper and A1 uppers aren't regular production. From what I understand DPMS stopped making them.

One of the things a "people's rifle" will have to be is affordable and available. Specialized parts of low volume production are more costly and not easily attainable all the time.

I say A2 upper, 1/9 twist for widest ammo versatility, 20" barrel(chrome lining is nice, but not necessary for 90% of the people). Lightweight profile preferred, but Govt. profile probably easier to get. Bushmaster makes a really nice chrome lined 1/9 twist Govt. profile 20". Their 1/9 twist chrome lined lightweight CAR barrel is a good carbine option. Even an M4 barrel is better than an HBAR. Just make sure it's light under the handguards, some manufacturers play games and leave it heavy there.

Standard furniture, fixed stock. As much as I don't like the A2 stock, Sulley's Cav Arms C1s or A1 type stocks will cost you. Plus that can easily be changed later once the rifle is "in the hands of the people".


So pretty much a standard A2 with a lighter barrel, an M16A2 clone with a 1/9 twist.

 

[LiquidTension]

I just handled a really old A1 style AR and I have to say that I liked it. My next upper will probably be a lightweight design.

My specs: A1 or A2 upper, no forward assist. 16" pencil bbl. I do like a collapsible stock, it's come in handy several times when letting smaller people shoot for the first time. No rails or frills, just plain plastic handguards. No optics.

 

[only1asterisk]

A1 Upper
16" midlength skinny barrel 1-9 twist
Chrome lined

Mine would wear rifle length handguards.

David

 

[bogie]

What's with all the "chrome lined" stuff?

Guys, if you go stainless, you don't need to worry about a chrome lining. And the only reason the dang things were chrome lined was lowest-bidder ammo that was loaded with dirty ball powder.

I'd go with an handle-upper (A2?) with a forward assist, standard length barrel, handguards, and the rest. If you're doing a group buy/build, see if you can find the plastic surplussed. Civilians also generally don't need the stuff like the dust covers, etc...

 

[only1asterisk]

The chrome lines barrel will have a longer service life and be more tolerent of abuse than those without. You trade a little accuracy, but I think it is worth it. Stainless is a good compromise, but has its own drawbacks.

David

 

[s&w 24]

O.K. looks like an A1 upper is the winner so far. Any source info on old 1 in 12 barrels? DPMS prices are $179 for a non cromed 16" car barrel with 5.5" flash suppresor. DPMS's catalog has fairly low cost 4-possition stocks but would any distributors have old A1 furniture for cheap?

 

[LawBot5000]

You said "people's AR?" As in an AR-15 that the average person can afford and use?

Honestly, if you are talking about a cheap but effective guerilla weapon, blowback operated weapons are 10x cheaper than gas operated rifles. Thanks to advances in cartridge development, it is now possible to have 200 yard capabillity in a blowback operated weapon. A grease gun or mac-10 like weapon chambered for 5.7x28mm would be an outstanding weapon for a freedom fighter. 200 yard effective range, defeats body armor and would probably cost 100 bucks to make.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I'd take a 7.62x25 over a 5.7x28 anyday.

 

[LawBot5000]

Ooh good call, I keep forgetting about that one. Yeah 7.62x25 is great too.

 

[s&w 24]

I'm not talking "file and hammer" made weapons. I'm talking a low cost AR for people so they have an investment in the second ammendment and in "black rifles". If your own property is on the line you'll fight a little harder in the "soft war" of politics to stop AWB II. Also This would be a way to build local community connections with build partys and marksmanship clinics so you know who you can call on for fighting AWB bills before it's the eve of destruction(confiscation).

How do you think your elected officials would react if they know there are a fair amount of voting and politicly active people in there district that own and shoot "black rifles"? If they don't have a solid hold on there seat It could be the thing that changes a no vote from a yes on anti gun legislation.

So in short lets focus on what AR parts not other stuff.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

For "the peoples AR" ...

Without a doubt a chrome-lined, NATO chamber SUPERLIGHT at 16".

1/9 is fine as the vast majority of people will never buy or shoot ammo over 69gr unless they handload or want to pay outrageous prices for the fancy stuff. The Bushmaster barrel is the best. Comes complete for $235.

What is most important is shortest length possible without legal issues and lightest weight.

HBAR's are fine and dandy until you have to hold it and use it for 4-6 hours (like at a shooting class). Try that, and you'll never want an HBAR again. Everyone that weilds a superlight NEVER goes back....HBARs are probably not hated as much as they should be because most of people who shoot AR's shoot less than 50 rnds per session and do so at a bench with some type of resting. I see this all the time at the range.

Chrome lining is important. Makes cleaning easier, gives a longer service life, and has other benefits. There's a reason why the military demands it.

The accuracy lost by going to a chrome lined service style barrel is meaningless in comparison to that of a stainless steel barrel. As a tool to blow away JBT's out to 300 meters....you don't need 1/2moa accuracy.


Buttstock....I'd say the M4 or CAR is the best choice. While it gives you little to no cheekweld or an awful cheekweld...the adjustability is ideal to where anyone can make it work for them. It isn't the most comfortable or perfect, but it is workable for anyone. That's what counts. The A2 is just too long for some people including men..and the A1 is too short for a lot of guys. It's also the cheapest option. I haven't seen very many crappy ones either. Even ones that came from kit providers with their logos were perfectly serviceable. It's hard to produce a worthless or unusable stock. I guess it's one of those things that are hard to screw up. Remember, this isn't a fancy benchrest rifle. This would be a tool for defending the homeland.


Upper....I'd rather go with a flattop for $90, then add a Yankee Hill flip-up A1 sight for $65 (I have one, it is very nice). This gives you the flattop which greatly opens up the options down the road. It also allows the rifle to be multi-role. Next, I'd try and find an A1 upper as it keeps weight down and has moron-proof rear sight. Problem is, most A1 uppers cost about as much as a flattop + an rear iron sight. Unless you can find some cheap surplus ones....A2 would be the last on my list of choices.


Find a quality bolt carrier group. This is the heart and soul of an AR. Don't skimp here like most people do. My first choice would be Colt, but they're expensive. For a good reason since they are properly made, heat treated and stress tested. A lower cost alternative would be CMT's for $130. Or even LMT's. I'd get the M16 carrier since it has a shrouded firing pin (instead of the jam-o-matic ramp) and a little more carrier mass which helps. I'd also go CMT for the lower parts kit and for the charging handle. Good price, excellent quality.

A rifle configured with parts that I've mentioned would be about $750. That's $100-$180 cheaper than a factory rifle that is equivalent/similar. I find it very hard to find and build an AR of minimum/acceptable quality for less than $700. I'm not talking about price shopping for weeks on AR15.com ...I'm talking about parts available right now for purchase from businesses. These $500 kits that you just add a lower are JUNK. Been there, done that.

 

[billsnogo]

I am a noob, and shot my first 223 rifle this weekend and loved it. So what kind of price range are we looking? I know bills gun shop has a dpms ar15 for $650 and that is the cheapest I have seen.

 

[rino451]

My list:

1. 16" superlight/pencil barrel, chrome lined barrel and chamber in 5.56.
2. A1 upper
3. CAR stock
4. chrome lined carrier
5. bolt w/ black spring insert and o-ring or equiv.
6. CAR handgards or none and leave up to the builder. Personally, I'd go with a free float tube (not rail) with a couple of 2" pic rails placed wherever necessary.
7. pinned front sight/gas block
8. 9mm buffer
9. vortex FH

 

[Roadwild17]

Maby we should throw around some criteria for this rifle?

Is it going to be for guys living in suburbia shooting houst to house and block to block? Then maby a 16" CAR or mid length and collapsible stock?

What about guys out on the farm taking 2-300 yard shots? 20" HBAR?

I don't know much about ARs, very little. However the rifle I'm wanting to put together is something like this.

Its supposed to have 1-1.5 moa. Figure with cheap ammo and persons who really are the best shots (yours truly) say 2.5-3 moa. @ 300 yards were looking like 7-9 inch groups, I think that will get the job done.

 

[vanfunk]

I think the Colt 6520 "Government Carbine" comes close to being the perfect Volks-AR. It's very lightweight (6 lbs.), accurate, has a chrome lined barrel and is built right. The only downside to the platform is that it has an A2 carry handle. Optics can still be mounted, of course, and a compact ACOG doesn't sit too proud of the handle. That'd be my choice to arm the people

vanfunk

 

[Glockfan.45]

vanfunk summed it up. The Colt Government Carbine fits the bill. Out of of the ARs I have handled or owned this one seems to be the best overall balance.



Everybody I have ever handed this rifle to loves it. After my Dad shot it the first time he went out and bought one (and he had always been a hunting guns only guy). I plan on picking up a "goose-neck" mount for it to attach my EOT. The co-witness on that setup is great.