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What Would You Do If....

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Good Ol' Boy, Nov 29, 2022.

  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a terrible idea, and it indicates a misunderstanding of the Tueller experiments.
     
  2. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    Can folks carry OC spray in the land down under? I know firearms are a big no no.
     
  3. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    Probably not
     
  4. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    First, let me emphasize again that I'm addressing the question of an average looking person carrying an axe in a convenience store in my tiny little town in rural North Idaho, not a transvestite dressed as a stripper carrying an axe in a convenience store in the city.

    So, here's a plausible scenario.

    Family needs to run to town for supplies. Mom drops dad off at the hardware store and then heads to the grocery store. Dad picks up a few things, including an axe, and then thinks, "it's chilly. Coffee sounds good". He makes his way to the convenience store/gas station across the street, gets his coffee and then remembers "I need an oil filter for the tractor". So, he walks a couple blocks to the auto parts place and gets the filter. He leaves that store and heads toward the grocery, where his wife is shopping. On the way, he passes the clothing/boot store, where he dips in to grab a couple pairs of wool socks. Finally he gets to the grocery store, where his wife is just finishing up shopping. All the while, he's been carrying this axe, and no one has thought a thing of it because they've seen folks do similar things before.
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Me? Seeing someone walk into a gas station/convenience stop & rob store carrying a large ax and carrying what appeared to be a large kitchen knife (ceramic?) stuffed into a back pocket? Even armed with a concealed retirement weapon?

    I'd have put down any merchandise in my hands, walked outside and called the local uniformed boys & girls to let them come check it out and deal with it. Somebody probably had some violence on their mind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  6. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    My first tactical thought would be to find an exit that wasn't blocked by ax-wielding persons and then try to get me and mine surreptitiously through that exit as quickly as possible.
    Everything else follows... .
     
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  7. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    AWTTWA
    Avoid white trash, tweakers with axes.
     
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  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Sure. Plausible. Except ...

    How does your hypothetical dad act while carrying the ax around? In your proposed scenario the dad is walking around not only holding the ax (a purchase from another store), but eventually carrying a couple other purchases. The body language, conduct and his demeanor would probably be noticeably different than what was seen in the convenience store video. The suspect spent her short time inside the store walking around and looking at the other people in the small store, not the products. Nor did she seem interested in examining products on the shelves.

    Instead, she kept her head up and appeared to check out the people in the store as she was circling, and then came to stand right next to the couple customers who had bunched up at the register, engaging one of them in conversation. Reasonably appeared not to have any interest in store inventory, but just the couple of customers in the store. Rather odd how she stayed engaged in conversation with the male victim for so long, and even allowed him to reach out and touch the handle of her ax. Maybe she was waiting for his attention to be distracted by the cashier before she decided to make her attack, as the other customer was leaving? It certainly seemed to give the attacker a heart beat's advantage, time-wise, ahead of both victims being able to react to her unprovoked attack.

    Different than the reasonable actions of your hypothetical shopper going about his personal business buying things at stores, while waiting for his wife to meet back up with him.

    Situational context and the totality of the circumstances. It's important, and it can vary for virtually each incident and situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  9. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Context is very important. I attended an LE training class when the "gunfight simulators" were first coming into use. They were testing a simulator called ROBBEC (I might not be remembering the name correctly) One of it's features was a sensor on the holster that told the system when you drew your weapon and that was compared with what the designer of the simulation thought was the first cue to draw. One scenario was you were arresting a cook at his place of employment on a warrant. The scenario started with you standing in the door of the kitchen and the cook was about 15 feet away on the other side of a large stainless steel prep table chopping vegetables with a chefs knife. The scenario played out with the cook running around the table and attacking the officer. He was shot every time and no officer was injured. However, every officer who ran that simulation was told they failed because they didn't draw as soon as they saw the cook chopping vegetables. In our after action review we explained that one could expect to find a cook with a knife in his hand at his place of employment and that the cook would have had to run around or jump across the prep table to get to the officer. We recommended that draw cue should be when the cook didn't put the knife down when commanded to by the officer standing in the door. I don't know if they ever changed it or even if that simulator ever made it into production.

    In your example it shouldn't be considered a threat absent any other actions by the man carrying the axe.
     
  10. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Probably a mental health situation. Demeanor and context is going to tell you everything. Let the police deal with it if it looks suspicious. The last thing you want to do is to give someone that nudge past the breaking point.
     
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  11. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    It's not just an Australian mindset. People are clueless all over the world. I'm sure folks at a Tacoma AM/PM Mini-Mart would react (or not react) the same way if a scantily clad, purple-haired, tattooed female walked in with axe in hand. Eyebrows would be raised, a young dude would try to hit on her, and she'd still get some swings in.

    One has only to look at the recent machete attacks in the U.S. (Florida, Chicago, NYC, Ohio, New Orleans) over the past few years. Guys walking around in public, on public transportation, and in retail stores, machetes in hand, without being confronted by anyone until AFTER they committed their assaults. We know that situational awareness in the general population is almost non-existent.

    What would I do? BTFO, firstly. Keep eyes on, phone in hand, other hand staged to draw. Pretty sure just by observing one would get fairly immediate clues as to the person's current mental health status. Up here, even in Clallem County, the loggers leave their axes in their trucks when stopping off for coffee or a can of dip. And the gal in the video sure wasn't dressed like a logger, so that's be a clue.
     
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  12. shafter

    shafter Member

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    This is a great point and a shortcoming of simulators. Much depends on the situation like what the warrant is for etc. Is it a felony warrant for violent charges or a sex offense or is it a simple failure to appear warrant on a small misdemeanor? What's the cooks demeanor like, and as you said, it's expected for a chef to have a knife in their hand while standing at the kitchen counter. It's very difficult to have cut and dry solutions when literally everything is situationally dependent.
     
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  13. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I remember those days and the early judgment/decision-making, branching events. If the scenario was specifically that limited, meaning always requiring the officer(s) to approach the suspect in the commercial kitchen, it set up the officer(s) for failure, in a very real sense.

    Taking into consideration tactical options potentially available in the real world, a properly designed branching scenario would've allowed the officer(s) to control how the suspect was confronted in the controlled environment of a commercial restaurant. In other words, not let the initial scenario influence an officer to do something that offered the opportunity to sidestep an avoidable officer safety risk. (Same reason bank robbery alarm calls were usually set up so responding officers (no sirens) arrived and called into the branch, directing an employee to come outside to discuss the alarm.

    For example, knowing the suspect named in the BW/AW was present at the scenario 'kitchen', ask the employer (outside the kitchen area) to please call the kitchen employee out of the kitchen. The specifics of the 'where' would be driven by the layout and options within the premises. Stationing an officer (or officers) at whatever rear exit(s) might be connected to the kitchen, in case the suspect attempted to flee, could cover one eventuality. Then, the officer(s) making the arrest would be able to meet the suspect when he was called outside the kitchen by his employer. Sure, it's always possible the suspect might decide to carry a chef's knife to go meet his employer, but that's arguably a lesser likelihood than seeing officers enter and approach him in the kitchen.

    I've had to go meet quite a number of suspects (BW's) and Restrained Persons (serving TRO's) at their places of employment, and when circumstances permitted, the first choice was always to have a supervisor (manager, owner, whatever) ask the employee to come meet him/her at an office or some other more isolated spot. It not only reduced the potential risks to other employees, should the employee being served/arrested become violent, but it reduced the potential for the employee to think bring tools/potential weapons, to meet a supervisor (manager, owner, etc), which weren't normally carried on their person during their work, away from their work station.

    It worked out pretty handily over the years ... when the person being served/arrested wasn't the manager or owner, of course.:uhoh::p It paid to know the employment capacity of the person we were looking for, though, as every now and again it might be the manager of owner. A little work and advance knowledge made it easier to set up the contact to our best advantage. When the person was someone in supervision, management or ownership, we'd ask an employee to call them and ask them to meet a customer up front. Sure, we'd prefer to listen to the call conversation, to make sure a warning was included. ;) Never had a manager or owner come to meet a customer with a tool/weapon in their hands. ;)
     
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  14. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    "What would you do if"

    Not turn my back to a person with an axe.
     
  15. Stevel

    Stevel Member

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    Not taking my eyes off her for starters.
     
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  16. AK Hunter

    AK Hunter Member

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    First of all be aware of your surroundings & if someone has a item in their hands that can be used as a weapon never take your eyes off of them.
    In addition stay out of swing reach of whatever they have. Just because I carry doesn't make me the hero that need to intervein in a situation like this. Let things play out & protect your self & loved ones. Everyone else should have been protecting themselves.
    If I'm in somewhere that I even see a person open carrying if they appear nervous, I get what I need & get out of there or just leave.
     
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  17. hq

    hq Member

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    May I add that putting distance between yourself and even a potential threat (a person holding an AXE in public?!) well before the situation even has a chance to escalate. If you see someone holding a weapon near your intended route, turn around and circle the block. No-one just happens to hold a deadly weapon in their hands for no reason at all. Holstered/sheathed weapon - usually no problem; brandished weapon - walk away; held ie. wielded weapon - run.

    Military Krav Maga basics. For everyday civilian situations we'll pass the "neutralize the threat on sight" -option. The video clip is full of tactical errors from the part of victims, but that's understandable if you don't have the training or ever been in a high-threat situation. Even when you make your retreat, you should try to keep your eyes on the weapon and the hands of the person possessing it. Turning away and giving the perp an element of surprise is the last thing you want to do.
     
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  18. Mikhail Weiss

    Mikhail Weiss Member

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    Some things look wrong because they are. It isn't a puzzle to solve. Act accordingly.

    Don't take your eyes off the problem. Depart. Call police.

    That said, some people get into trouble because they don't believe danger and violence are real, or can affect them. The video shows two examples of that. Guy whacked in face. Long-haired person whacked in the back of the skull and again in the side when upon the ground. That shows a remarkable level of naïveté, now cured.
     
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  19. Night Rider

    Night Rider Member

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    You know you basically have a better chance of hitting the Powerball then of having that specific set of circumstances line up like that right?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
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  20. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Everyplace has its own norms and rhythms. I live in a rural area and it’s not unusual to see someone carry a tool or part into the local Rural King so they can find the right part or replacement. I’ve seen broken axes, shovels and rakes carried in so they could get a new handle. Don’t think I’ve seen one carried into a convenience store though.

    I think what bearcreek was saying was there are places where someone carrying an axe wouldn’t be out of place. There are other cues to look for. Someone dressed like a stripper carrying an axe for instance;).
     
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  21. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    Totally concur. Society has drummed into folks they must lovingly "accept" every crackpot and weirdo strolling down the road. Appropriate caution is what has protected us for millions of years. I will bet those two youthful victims did not want to stigmatize the lunatic standing next to them and diverted their gaze.

    Yup, totally agree. This idea of "taking my full-size axe for coffee" is absurdly out-of-place 99.999% of the time. Were I to purchase a new axe it would be rolled to my truck in a shopping cart as a courtesy to others because otherwise it just plain looks WEIRD and threatening. If I had other (walking) errands to do, the axe would be left at the hardware store for pick-up later.
     
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  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's you.
     
  23. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    The most universal response, of course, is to beat feet upon seeing Pauline Bunyan and her magic maul.

    But once Rimmer made the mistake of letting her get so close to him, he should have stayed close. When someone is winding up to swing a long tool at you (like a baseball bat, metal pole, golf club, axe, machete, etc.) and you are in range of the tool, then closing the distance is generally the best immediate reaction.
     
  24. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    You are very correct! :thumbup:
     
  25. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    Agreed. It was a genuine miracle the second victim laying on ground did not find herself being darn near cleaved open. Luck was on her side that day.
     
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