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What would you do?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Arrogant Bastard, Oct 13, 2008.

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  1. TeamPrecisionIT

    TeamPrecisionIT Member

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    The fact that after he said 'make me' your conciousness went towards the gun in your pocket is what has made most of us react the way we have.

    Damian
     
  2. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    This is a tricky point, but I disagree.

    "Higher standard of care" applies to CCW-holders: we are expected to go REALLY out of our way to avoid, descalate or dis-engage from a physical conflict, because we know we're armed, and we know it could escalate into deadly force.

    If he thows a punch, and you throw a punch back, you'll be having a lot more trouble explaining to a jury why you eventually shot him. You can of course try the "Well, he STARTED it!" defense (doesn't work for my sons). He'll say you started it, and most witnesses will say, "I don't know, I just saw two guys fighting so I started yelling, 'Fight! Fight! Fight!'"

    As I said: if he hits you, go down. Stay down. Hands up, "I'm done. I give." Whatever. You tried to end the conflict.

    It's very hard to continue fight with someone you just knocked down--most people would walk away. If he continues the fight by kicking you with a shod foot after you're down and not fighting, THAT is considered deadly force: draw your gun and see what happens next.

    "But if I do that, he might kill me before I shoot him." Yes--and that risk would fulfuill the "in immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger etc." requirement we've been talking about.

    I personally would not want to try to sell either the "Well, if I had let him punch me he could've killed me," or the "Well, once he punched me I had to punch him back" theories to a jury after a shooting that resulted from such an altercation.

    If you want to punch someone back--leave the gun at home. Please.
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Deleting the post won't do any good. It's permanent and it's readily retrievable. If one doesn't want something to end up in the hands of an investigator, regulator, prosecutor, or plaintiff's counsel, there's only one way to ensure that: don't generate it in the first place.

    Loosedhorse, your post of 8:29 is excellent. Everyone should read and heed it.
     
  4. Arrogant Bastard

    Arrogant Bastard Member

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    Yes, it did, and the thought that went through my mind was that my carrying it meant I had a much greater duty to de-escalate and disengage than I otherwise might have.

    I would hope anybody carrying would think the same in a similar situation.
     
  5. shouldifail

    shouldifail Member

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    i would have challenged him to a duel, or a jousting match....people at the reniassance fair love that stuff!!!!!
    i commend you for keeping your calm. all worked out well and the guy ended up looking like the a-hole he was.
     
  6. ezypikns

    ezypikns Member

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    Thanks, I need to clarify.

    I do understand that a physical assault can indeed be deadly. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't defend yourself if you feel the situation warrants.
    What I do believe though is that in Texas, the law states that the use of deadly force demands that it be used against force of equal lethality, and if you shoot someone who is attacking you with their fists, that YOU may be the one having to prove that the use of such deadly force was justified.

    There was a case here in Dallas (one of the first CHL involved shootings if memory serves) where a CHL holder shot and killed a large individual who was in fact "beating the poop out of him". He was acquitted of manslaughter, but only after spending a little while in jail and LOTS of cash.

    I think what my point is is that folks who carry just need to be really thoughtful about what they're doing. Not to the point of paralysis. We're carrying to protect ourselves and our loved ones, after all. I think that we just need to understand that since we're carrying around a lot of power, we're playing by a different set of rules now, and that situations that we didn't tolerate before need to be overlooked now.
     
  7. rondog

    rondog Member

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    It's sad that there's people like that in our society, stinking up our air. It's REALLY sad that there's a LOT of them out there. The young ones are bad enough, but older guys should know better.
     
  8. Arrogant Bastard

    Arrogant Bastard Member

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    Exactly -- and, though I understood that on an academic level before, Saturday was the first time the point was driven home in a visceral way.
     
  9. rondog

    rondog Member

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    Ya gotta feel for the guy's poor wife, having to live with a hole like that every day.
     
  10. BBQLS1

    BBQLS1 Member

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    Brandishing a weapon or shooting someone will incur criminal and civil penalties no matter what else happens (short of you dieing). It won't be a good thing no matter what happens. The magnitude of the penalties just hasn't been determined. You might just have to show up in court, or you may go to prison.

    That being said, you had better be in some serious trouble before you pull a firearm.
     
  11. DC300a

    DC300a Member

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    At no point during that exchange would I have even considered the use of deadly force.

    I am a pretty big guy with training so the threat of a physical altercation with, to quote the OP "an old guy" would not take me anywhere near the realm of deadly force.

    Just my .02
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
  12. nofishbob

    nofishbob Member

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    How sure of this are you? So if am attacked with a knife, I must find a knife to defend myself with? If someone comes after me with a bat, I should go find a bat? What if the guy has a .38 and all I have is a .357?

    I think the standard is you should use lethal force only when you are reasonably in fear of being seriously injured or killed. Of course you will need to justify your actions, but matching weapons with the bad guy is not reasonable.

    Bob
     
  13. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I won't jump on you for what you THOUGHT about doing. Meeting a hostile person and keeping your eyes on him isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But if I was thinking in the realm of deadly force, I would also be trying to think of a feasible way to MOVE AWAY FROM HIM. Think about it, if you had to explain it to a jury, that you had a bad conversation with the man, so you decided to keep your hand on your gun just in case? Why did you not leave?

    I think you probably argued a couple of lines past the point I would have though.
     
  14. La Pistoletta

    La Pistoletta Member

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    Uncalled for.
     
  15. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    The standard is "equal force." Here, specifically, any lethal force may be met with any lethal force. Attacker tries to shoot defender, defender can run him down with a car, etc.
     
  16. contenderman

    contenderman Member

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    I'd let it go after the attempts to reason with the man. From your narrative you had other (non-family) people witnessing exchange.

    If your a CCW then you know that there still wasn't enough provocation to warrant use of your handgun.

    If you not a CCW then there is the matter of assault if you grab or hit him.

    And ... here is another tidbit for thought ... in addition to being a world class jerk he may have been a little "off in the head" , or he may have been a CCW himself and was trying to provoke an altercation.

    The way you handled it and the presence of witnesses gave you the high ground, and you handled it well.

    I know that there may be some "chest thumping" about this, but unless you've been in and prevailed in similar situations ... you don't know what in the heck you'd really do.
     
  17. ezypikns

    ezypikns Member

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    I agree with you 100%.

    And if you're in what you consider a life or death situation you can't be expected to do a lot of philosophical thinking.

    In the end, it's better to be alive than otherwise.

    And I am NOT a lawyer.

    If you shoot someone in self defense though, you will be judged by a jury who will be instructed to interpret the laws of this state. And they'll have lots of time to consider and weigh your actions.

    All I'm really saying is that carrying a weapon for self defense should be a sobering experience, and not entered into lightly.
     
  18. Carl Levitian

    Carl Levitian member

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    So an old man gave you some lip and attitude at a public event. I can't believe two things hadn't been thought of.

    1. That maybe the old man had a reason known only to himself why he was acting that way. May be he was baiting you. Do you think just because you have a gun, maybe he could have had one too? Maybe he see's you as some young arrogant prick telling him to move for a family thats not even there, and he deceides he's going to make a stand. Maybe he's tired of young guys asking him to move it, or blowing a horn at him if he's driving too slow. Who knows what was on his mind? Maybe he was waiting for you to "make him" so he could pull that little airweight J frame from under something and make swiss cheese out of your midsection. A strike back at all the young punks who he hates because he's old, and theres nothing he can do about it.

    People are not only weird, but they are the most unpredictable thing in the world. Doesn't pay to mess with weird acting strangers, they may be setting you up for something. You never know who he may be. Sometimes things may not be as simple as they may seem.

    2. Unless its a paid seating type of event, then your family should have been there to get a seat. Trying to save a block of seats is kind of a jerk thing to do. You both were in the wrong. Maybe he liked the view from there. Must be a reason you wanted those particular seats so bad.
     
  19. AndyC

    AndyC Member

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    I have a couple of meandering thoughts here:

    Pity it's not the old days where two guys could just get into a tussle ;)

    That said, don't ever fight if you can avoid it - prisons are full of people who said "But I didn't mean to punch him so hard that he fell over and died.". Don't let your ego draw you into a physical confrontation - there are very real legal, medical and otherwise life-altering consequences. So your ego might have gotten deflated - it'll recover.

    If you are ever forced into a corner in a physical confrontation and there's no way out, say this loud and clear "Look, I don't want to get into a fistfight over something so petty - do you?" If he says "Yes, I'm gonna kick your @ss" or something similar, then you have to protect yourself - it's game on, so kick him immediately in the kneecap and end it as quickly and cleanly as you can.

    It's an annoying experience to have had, sure, but it was valuable; as you discovered, it's one thing to know what you can/should do and quite another to be confronted with it first-hand. You might have wanted those seats and felt quite justified in your own mind that they were yours - but they really weren't, despite the fact that the guy was a complete jerk.
     
  20. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Never. Social situations require social solutions. The fact that it didn't end up in a fight means your social skills and ability to navigate those problems is adequate.

    Violent situations require violence. If he would have used the "disagreement" as a pretense to then stab you in the neck, then rape your girlfriend...well then it never was a social issue over a seat.

    I know that seems over the top, but the point is I don't feel there is a blurry line between social problems and violent problems. If people want to do you serious harm it goes down totally different. If they just want to be jerks to improve their perceived social standing (maybe even start a fist fight) well, those situations can be avoided or de-escalated.

    If it does get physical, even a social situation spilling into a fist fight, I recommend ending it fast and decisively for the reasons you mentioned about even a punch being lethal on occasion. Of course there will likely be legal repercussions...hence my emphasis on using social skills to avoid social problems...
     
  21. BBQLS1

    BBQLS1 Member

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    I don't see saving seats is a jerk thing to do. I don't understand why it is. This is especially true when there are plenty of other seats available, as in this situation.

    When your wife gets up to use the restroom and someone comes over and takes her seat, is that okay too?
     
  22. Mr Thundermaker

    Mr Thundermaker Member

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    La Pistolleta

    this post will show a jury that arrogant bastard might be a trigger happy lunatic looking for a reason to shoot somebody. he quickly reached for his pistol in his pocket when an elderly gentleman at a renaissance fair refused to give up his seats for arrogant bastards family. see where i am coming from. i don't know much about trials and the laws in Sweden, but here in America if you pee'd behind a road sign in 1974 and its can be used to show malice against your character don't think for a second any attorney worth his salt will definately present it to a jury. Mr Thundermaker...over and out
     
  23. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

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    AB- do you think you could have whipped his [ ]?

    If so, you could have challenged him to handle it man-to-man out in the woods or the parking lot (after you give your piece to your wife, of course).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2008
  24. jordan1948

    jordan1948 Member

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    I just want to point out that the OP's SN is Arrogant Bastard
     
  25. george29

    george29 Member

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    "Sir, I suffer from a rare and extremely infectious pulmonary disease which is why I maintain a certain distance from others, I assume you would rather sit elsewhere but that is your choice."
     
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