What're my options for a Colt 1860 Richards conversion repro?

[RyanM]

I've finally saved up enough money for another gun, and it's down to two. One is a modern abomination which I won't mention here.

The other is a good converted 1860 repro of the earlier Richards conversion, if such a thing even exists at present. I absolutely prefer the aesthetics and handling of the 1860 over the later 1873 in every possible way. However, I really want a "1st model" Richards conversion, with the original C&B style barrel, but also the rear sight on the cylinder ring. 100% authentic external dimensions and .44 Colt caliber (but with chamber and bore dimensions which use modern .429-.430 dia bullets) would be a big plus. I'm going to handload my own ammo with genuine black powder, and the only handgun caliber I load right now is .40 S&W (fat chance of getting an 1860 in that ), so I have no real reason to get a caliber than I can find on store shelves.

I used to have a huge desire for a Cimarron/Uberti conversion, but after learning of the Mason/original C&B style rear sight on all models, and the beefed up dimensions to take .45 LC, I'm kind of lukewarm on them.

If I get a current production Cimarron Transition in .44 Colt, will it still be the new overbuilt dimensions? Is it possible to get a Richards style rear sight aftermarket?

Buying a C&B and having that converted is out, as I'm neither going to cast my own bullets, nor pay exorbitant amounts for non-standard diameters. Standard modern cal bullets is a must.

I'm also trying to keep this under $600.

 

[arcticap]

There were 2 examples of discontinued models recently
discussed on TheFiringLine, one being a Traditions 1860
Richards First Conversion Model and the other being an
Armi San Marco/Navy Arms 1851 that recently sold on
Gunbroker.

See Posts #14 & #17 about the Traditions, all of the
embedded pictures besides the single one posted below
are of it:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348139

See this thread about the ASM:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360475

From the Gunbroker auction description where it sold for $290:

Navy Arms 1851 5 1/2 Colt open top .38 conversion

I have been corrected as to the manufacturer, this is an
Armi San Marco 1851 open top conversion in 38spl. It was
distributed by Navy Arms, and it is only marked Navy Arms
on the underside of the barrel. It has had about 100rds
through it and is in excellent condition, only signs of wear
is some finish wear around the cylinder as can be seen.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129829986

 

[arcticap]

More Unfired Traditions Richards First Conversion Model Pictures

Continued...

 

[StrawHat]

I have an older Armi San Marco Richards Model 1860, imported by Traditions, in 44 Colt that I now enjoy shooting. It took me a while to get it to this point as I eventually ended up replacing most of the internal parts at various times since I have owned it. The ASM parts were somewhat soft and wore out over time. From what I can determine, this model is no longer available. Uberti makes a Richards Model but it is available in 44 and 45 Colt. I doubt they will be different dimensionally.

http://www.ubertireplicas.com/1860army.php#prod

One is also imported by Cimarron

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversions/TypeIIRichConv.htm

I am not aware of anyone offering the Richards rear sight as an aftermarket addition as it is integral with the cylinder spacer.

IF you have one of the gunsmiths convert an 1860 C&B revolver, the option of having the barrel relined to .430 is there and something you may want to consider. In 44 Colt it is not the diameter of the original bullet (.454 or so) that is the problem so much as finding a bullet with the rebated heel for loading "outside" the shell. Lining the barrel allows the use of the more common inside the shell method most folks are used to seeing.

As for your budget, I am not current on prices so ....

You say you prefer the handling of the 1860 over the Model P. The main difference is the grip on the 1860 is a bit longer than what is on the Model P. I believe someone is importing Model Ps with the 1860 grip frame on them. If not, it is a fairly simple switch. Perhaps that would be an option for you.

Good luck

 

[RyanM]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Looks like I'll have to keep an eye out for ASM conversions.

Heeled bullets are precisely what I'm trying to avoid, since I don't think they're commonly available anywhere.

I did find some kind of Cimarron on Gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130346887

I guess it's either an aftermarket job, or Cimarron imported ASM at some point (given that they're rebranding "Cobra" derringers, anything's possible)? I don't know enough about these things to tell the difference.

I do know enough, though, to look at the chambers and tell that they're .45 caliber and not .43, so that one's probably out. I bet bidding will go really high, too. But it's going to make someone's day, that's for sure.

I may need to just get a Cimarron/Uberti Richards 2nd model in .45 LC. That makes the choice between that or a modern gun much harder though. It'd be a clear cut choice if a correctly proportioned 1st model in modernized .44 Colt were available...

You say you prefer the handling of the 1860 over the Model P. The main difference is the grip on the 1860 is a bit longer than what is on the Model P. I believe someone is importing Model Ps with the 1860 grip frame on them. If not, it is a fairly simple switch. Perhaps that would be an option for you.

That's part of it, but the 1860 also balances and "feels" different. That's also one of the reasons why I'm leery of the Ubertis. If they increased the size and strength of some parts, it's going to feel different. Maybe not enough to notice, but none of the local stores stock Uberti conversions, so I have no idea. Of course, a .430 bore will mess up the balance too, so maybe I'm just being paranoid.

I also really prefer the streamlined appearance of the 1860/1861. The SAA is just "blocky" and ugly to me. You've got this giant, oversized cylinder and frame, with a teeny tiny skinny barrel and grip tacked on, while the 1860's lines flow smoothly from muzzle, to cylinder, to grip. I just really have no interest in owning an 1873 repro. It may be more practical than an open top, but I've already got a Glock for my practical, ugly gun.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

I've finally saved up enough money for another gun, and it's down to two. One is a modern abomination which I won't mention here.
The other is a good converted 1860 repro of the earlier Richards conversion, if such a thing even exists at present.

See if you can get one of the new Ubertis with a forged steel frame, if they make it in conversion- or, try to find one in stainless steel (if such an animal exists)- the problem with the import replicas is, the metallurgy is poor. Cast steel with case hardening only about 010" deep if that.

The best option for a c/b conversion is make one yourself, from a Ruger Old Army. Buy a Ruger, and put a conversion cylinder in it. Or, buy a forged frame Uberti and convert that.

The Italian replicas look good- but their metallurgy has gone south for the duration. The cast steel frame guns are way overpriced at around $500, when in reality they're worth about half that. Uberti's recent release of "forged frame" guns was aimed directly at that complaint.

 

[RyanM]

According to Cimarron, Uberti's factory conversions are made of the same stuff as their Peacemaker clones, and are solid enough to handle any ammo the Peacemakers will, so I doubt that's an issue.

And a Ruger + cylinder would destroy my budget.

I have just noticed that I can afford a Pedersoli Howdah pistol, though. For some reason I thought they were more expensive. And it'd be a nice counterpoint to my Serbu Super Shorty...

The decision on what to buy ain't getting any easier!

 

[CaptainCrossman]

I've finally saved up enough money for another gun, and it's down to two.
The other is a good converted 1860 repro of the earlier Richards conversion, if such a thing even exists at present. I absolutely prefer the aesthetics and handling of the 1860 over the later 1873 in every possible way.

you're hooked on the Richards 1st model, so am I, something about the later Colts with that pin sticking out of the hammer just looks cheap to me- the Richards 1 looks high end in comparison- articap's post with pics previous is actually my gun bought at a gun show in January. It's a good gun. Just beware of soft import metallurgy- this one appears to be ok in that respect.

the real McCoy just sold on gunbroker for $900, by a newbie seller with zero feedbacks. I was going to buy it yesterday but hesitated, because he didn't have a paypal account set up, and the pictures were blurry- and he was a new seller. Paypal is the only way to guarantee any satisfaction in case it's a fake, not numbers matching, badly cracked, etc. The seller then did set up a paypal account, and notified me last night. I didn't buy it using the BIN, and sure enough when I woke this morning, it was already sold. Oh well. But anyway, this was a pretty good gun for the price, considering even at 10% they are listed in blue book for $3500. Someone got a smokin' deal on a real Richards type one 1860 conversion. My intentions were get it, take it apart, get it working- and maybe even shoot it with BP cartridge loads. The gun appears to be jammed with hammer back, and has a crack in it from wedge slot downward, that someone tried to file out- so it would require some expert mig/tig welding and filing to repair it.

but still a great deal- see below

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131028067

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have just noticed that I can afford a Pedersoli Howdah pistol, though. For some reason I thought they were more expensive. And it'd be a nice counterpoint to my Serbu Super Shorty...

You well not regret the Pedersoli Howdah. The fit and finish on mine is very nice. I have enjoyed playing around with different loads, shot, .31 rb and I found .62 cal rb with a patch works well. It is even slower to load than a cap and ball revolver. One thing you need to do is seal up the area around the loading ram. You can inadvertently get some shot down that opening and it can get in the locks and cause havoc.