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What's the deal with registration?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Phantom Warrior, Jun 1, 2005.

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  1. Phantom Warrior

    Phantom Warrior Member

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    I have two questions about gun registration.

    1. What degree of registration is actually in place? I know I have to fill out a big form every time I buy a gun. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that the gun store maintains that information for at least a short period of time. What happens to that information? Is it just kept on file? Is it stored in a database?

    2. This is the big question. Why is registration bad? I'm against it, but I have a hard time articulating why. If an anti comes up to me and says "Why don't you want to register guns? Don't you want to catch criminals? Are you trying to help gang members? HUH? (blah blah blah and so on)" what should I say?
     
  2. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    I don't know details for #1, but for #2:

    Registration appears to be regarded as bad because it is one step away from confiscation. The government will have a list of what you own and where you are are. Gun control legislation is absurd these days, we all know it. At that point, the grabbers would know all they have to do is get a ban going and they know just which door to start knocking on and how many guns should be coming out of said house.

    Just ask those individuals how you're catching criminals with registration. How many guns recovered in crimes were even posessed legally? Until that individual realizes that criminal means one who doesn't obey the law, it won't really matter what you say about this to them :p

    Summary: Registration ==> Confiscation
     
  3. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

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    Registration leads to confiscation.

    This has been the case in every country that ever made ownership of firearms illegal.
     
  4. Phantom Warrior

    Phantom Warrior Member

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    I'm familiar w/ the registration=confiscation argument.

    But the natural reply is going to be "Yeah, but if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about. Isn't catching criminals important?"

    What am I supposed to say to that?
     
  5. Mongo the Mutterer

    Mongo the Mutterer Member

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    Registration varies from state to state. In MO for "concealable" firearms (handguns) we have to get a permit from the county sheriff to purchase the gun (except in St. Louis County, then it is the County Police).

    You fill out a form stating you aren't a criminally insane homicidal manic with a restraining order against you, then you pay $10 and wait 10 days to get the permit, which you take to the dealer, who fills in the make, serial number, etc, and mails it back to the county.

    What is done with those records from that point on, I don't know... I hate to guess :confused: :eek:
     
  6. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    Look to Australia and England for the answer. In both cases, registration was followed fairly quickly by confiscation and criminalization, and the database created by registration made it very easy to find those otherwise law-abiding people who had the guns and force them to turn them in. There are other cases through history where this has happened as well, with even worse results.

    As to the almost certain rejoinder of "We register cars, why not guns?" Can be answered by the fact that we don't have a concerted effort to rid our society of cars in this country. Yet.
     
  7. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    If you follow historical precedent, eventually gun ownership becomes a crime. As a gun owner, you by definition are doing something wrong. Then they are catching criminals.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2005
  8. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    You should tell them that is irrelevant. If the government has your info, you're still one step away from confiscation, regardless of their intentions. Someone else further down the road may have a different agenda (If guns are banned, you might be a criminal by default). Ask them "Isn't avoiding a dictatorship important?".

    Also ask them if they would like cameras on every street corner monitoring them, because "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about."
     
  9. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    First and foremost, Congratulations on wanting to be educated rather than another babbling idiot (I refer to the Anti's who have no real logic or education about guns, crime or the combination thereof).

    I am not an expert, but there are several people on this site who can direct you appropriately. However, I will give you my $0.02 (which person on this site won't?)

    Gun registration sounds like a good idea until you look over history at the way it was MIS-used by tyrrants and dictators to disarm normal law abiding citizens, many of whom were then led to their deaths in concentration camps or just killed outright. Some very easy examples of this are the Nazi party, Polpot (sp/), Stalin and most recently in Rwanda, Africa when one religious tribe disarmed the other through the force of law, and then systematically killed them.

    In addition to looking at history, you can also look at the anicdotal evidence in crime rates after confiscation in countries such as England and Australia. Ask anyone there who gave up their guns to the gov and they'll tell you what's what.

    Besides, our constitution is very clear. the second amendment reads..."A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." What part of "shall not be infringed" don't these people understand.

    The 1, 4 and 5th amendments are all personal rights as well , yet ask one of these dummies if they would be willing to register all anti-gun financial supporters in a data base and they would scream "first amendment rights".

    When you fill out a Form 4473 (Yellow Sheet), my best understanding is that the FFL keeps that for 72 hours and then destroys it, however, who knows what happens after the FFL calls the little building in West Virginia for the NICS check???? Only the Shadow knows... :neener:

    Anyway, I hope more intelligent folks than me will give you more information with which to fight the anti-gun psycho-babal.
     
  10. hayseed

    hayseed Member

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    My reply: "Exactly, I'M not doing anything wrong, so how is MY registration going to help catch criminals, as I am NOT A CRIMINAL!"

    Pointing out to an anti that registration leads to confiscation only bolsters the case for registration in their mind, because they want confiscation.

    What we have to drive home to these folks is that punishing/regulating only those who are inclined to comply has no impact on crime or criminals whatsoever. Criminals won't line up to register thier guns, just like gun-free zones don't make killers and robbers turn around and rethink their lives. Until they understand this basic principle, all our arguments against more legislation will fall on deaf ears.
     
  11. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    It is a crime for a felon to possess a firearm. Therefore, it could be argued that criminals are by defintition exempted from registration by the Fifth Amendment, since by doing so they would be incriminating themselves.
     
  12. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    The year - 1997, England, UK. My handgun collection - around 24. ALL registered and showing on my firearms certificate. After some date in September IIRC, it was then a CRIME for me to remain in possession of said guns.

    My choices?

    1) To hell with my family and responsibilities - why not let them come get em -- put up a bloody fight! (Paper headlines - ''Gun nut goes beserk'' - ''good riddance'' say the bliss ninies). Result - no help to cause - useless martydom and a fatherless family!

    2) Only other option - hand them in - and screw the Gov for every penny compensation I could get.

    For those who say it was a whuss move to hand em in - see #1.

    Bottom line - registration is the very MEANS to reliable confiscation - THE way to, in an instant, make a group of gun owners, suddenly into criminals. :mad:
     
  13. Poodleshooter

    Poodleshooter Member

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    Ask them this: "What if the government decides to make you a criminal for something you consider to be within your rights?"

    Note that this won't make any sense to at least three groups of people:
    1.Those who don't believe in the right to revolt against government for any reason
    2. Those who support laws regardless of their content-complete authoritarians. Those who hold the rule of government more sacred than personal freedoms-the very opposite of libertarians. There are a lot of these folks out there in almost every political party. They differ from (1) in that they would revolt against a state of anarchy or a very loose government. These are the folks who are always clamoring for more government.
    3. Those who don't believe in initiating or using violence for any purpose.

    All three of these groups are useless to argue or debate with,as they disagree with the very premises of our RTKBA beliefs. They won't convert barring a life changing event to change their mind.

    I actually find that the above argument works very well with anyone who doesn't support the current government in power. It works very poorly with those who aren't politically interested at all. They can't fathom that the government and their fellow citizens might legislate away their rights.
    Those folks (the unconcerned middle) are in my opinion more dangerous than extremists on either side.
     
  14. moa

    moa Member

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    Registration is a political act, not a tool against crime.

    Convicted felons, who are disabled by law from possessing firearms, are not required to register their firearm/s by the Courts. If forced to register, the felons would have their right against self-incrimination violated. The Courts have upheld this, and it is the law of the land.

    Cannot remember the case that was ruled on by the SCOTUS, IIRC.
     
  15. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    How is registration good? It does NOT solve crimes.

    Last year I attented a lecture by John Lott at Xavier University here in Cincinnati. During a Q&A session after his presentation I asked about the statistical support for registration. He said his research (as yet unpublished) showed that it had no crime fighting/solving value. If you ask about it's track record in authoritarian states (cities) such as NYC or Chicago, they will blame "guns brought in from neighboring states with lax gun laws." But he gave the example of Hawaii, which has had very strict gun control and registration (at least handguns) for several decades. It is a group of islands with no other contiguous states. Virtually all entry is via commercial airlines and all luggage is screened. Smuggling may occur, but it has to be much more difficult than simply driving across the state line in the "mainland." Lott related the anecdotal evidence that when the CLEO (in Hawaii) was asked to testify in support of an expanded registration law, he had to say that the registry had never been used to solve a crime in the 40 years of its existance.

    In other words, flip the question. Make them prove that registration works for some legitimate purpose (solving crimes other than possession). Do not accept that "it's common sense." It is not. Make them prove it. When they stammer, ask for even a hypothetical of when it would solve a crime. Remember, first they have to find the gun and connect it to a specific crime before it could possibly lead to the "legal" owner who in fact did the deed.
     
  16. BamBam-31

    BamBam-31 Member

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    That sucks, Chris. :fire:
     
  17. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    P95Carry makes a good point. Once thay are registered, you no longer have the option not to turn them in (without a losing battle). If you are going to rebel, you must do it by not registring in the first place (if possible).
     
  18. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    Actually the form 4473 must be kept by the FFL for as long as the FFL is in business. If the FFL goes out of business or loses his FFL the records are supposed to be retained for 10 years afterwards. The FFL I use says the BATFE gets the 4473's when an FFL goes out of business and they are the ones tasked with keeping the forms for the 10 years.

    Wanna bet if they get destroyed after that 10 years?

    That's all actually neither here nor there though. Unless someone somewhere is keying in S/N's and owner data the 4473 is pretty useless (its actually pretty useless anyway).

    Imagine that a firearm is recovered in a crime. Investigators can find out from the manufacturer of the gun what distributor they sold the gun to. Then the distributor discloses what FFL they shipped it too and then he tells the investigators who he legally sold it to.

    So now the investigators are back to you - and you inform them that you either:

    1) Sold the gun - trail broken - unless you can provide info on the buyer - how many criminals trying to buy a gun will give out their real names and addresses - huh?
    2) Gave it away - trail broken - you wouldn't give it to a criminal would you and if you did would you tell a batman
    3) It was stolen - trail broken
    4) Other - trail broken

    So the 4473 is only good for the first buyer unless that buyer transferred or sold it thru an FFL when he disposed of the gun.

    4473's are an indirect form of registration and in my eyes pretty much prove that registration will not nor can it aid in the catching of criminals.

    All registration does is make it easier for the government to come and take your weapons away from you when they are good and ready to do it (which IMO will be in the next 25 to 50 years).
     
  19. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    For anyone saying look at another country, look at the NFA. Whether or not you consider that registration (seems some folks like to get around the concept that their guns are registered by considering it tax paperwork), the fact remains that it is. Can you buy any new MG's anymore? Nope. Only transfer the ones that are out there. Next step will be halting all transfers, and then you are looking at turn them in.

    Registration wouldn't be a bad thing if you could guarantee me that it would never be misused. Looking back through history, you can't guarantee me the gov't won't misuse anything.
     
  20. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    Form 4473 retention requirements

     
  21. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    HB - true enough but - the catch there is (was) - unless a gun was obtained thru totally illegal channels, thus making you a criminal - the only way to purchase was thru a sneeky system... viz -

    The firearms certificate (FAC) had ''slots'' as we called them - for which you applied in advance (each required ''good reason - meaning some ''official'' competition 'need')- either at renewal time or thru a ''variation'' - which they charged for!! They then would write ''9mm pistol'', ''357 revolver'' - or whatever. Only with that there could you go buy - then the FFL could supply and - yep - log the S/N in his book AND on the FAC. So any and every gun was registered by default.

    Also - would you believe - on said FAC were areas for entering ammo purchases - and each cal had an ''allowance'' which you had to set up first. That might have been - ''buy at a time - 200'' - actually hold (max) - 500''. :rolleyes: No wonder we mostly reloaded! ;(

    Yep - privelage and registration is just great! :mad:
     
  22. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    But how can it be a good thing? What you are saying is that, at best, it is a neutral, useless thing.
     
  23. K-Romulus

    K-Romulus Member

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    jefnvk - that's what happened with DC

    Like your NFA example, the DC government did the same thing with handguns.

    First, it was register all handguns "so we know who the good guys are."

    The next step was to fix it so that no more handgun registrations would be accepted. :scrutiny:
     
  24. Gray Peterson

    Gray Peterson Member

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    Btw, that "self incrimination for registration" thing was fixed with a rewrite of the NFA back in 1968 with the Safe Streets Act.
     
  25. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Never meant to imply it was, but his question was 'how is it a bad thing'. Nothing more than semantics, really.

    Honestly, we should start keeping the dangerous people in prison, and we wouldn't have to worry about things like registration.

    Oh, forgot about DC, too. Another prime exampls.

    And wasn't there a case in Chicago were police were actually going to gun owners houses?
     
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