What's the deal with the 25-06?
- Thread starter Kachok
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Kachok
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Well the swirl effect does work in an internal combustion engine becasue it prevents the formation of "hot spots" in the combustion chamber preventing detonation, and it improves the fuel air mixture by making it more even throughout. I would think that a similar effect could be helpful in centerfire cartrages, by creating a more even combustion minimizing fps spread. Swirl polishing is easy enough on intake vlaves but I don't see how you could do it on the inside of your brass LOL.Puh-leaze.
How are you measuring (or seeing any effect of) this "swirl" in 60KPSI gas? What kind of relationship does the "swirl" have with regards to shoulder angle? What about the boundary conditions of 0 degrees (straight wall case) and 90 degrees (either a funny looking case with very sharp shoulders or imagine a straight wall case with a saboted bullet)?
Kachok, if you spend 10% of the time you are spending agonizing over this rifle choice practicing with whatever you actually end up with you are going to be a freaking ninja assassin in the field
I know, it's all good fun.
*Not 100% correct as Nosler is loading 280 AI and I'm sure there are others I am not aware of.
What are you talking about I AM A NINJA ASSASSIN IN THE FIELD
LOL In all reality I have never missed a shot when hunting, and nothing I have ever shot has needed a followup. That is because I studie internal, external and terminal ballistics like I have some kind of OCD dissorder. I am pretty good at cars too. I would spend more time at the range, but the only high power rifle range "nearby" is a little over an hour drive, and expensive to boot.
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Striker Fired
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Ever hear the word HEMI? Ya, Also why sparkplugs in the middle of the chamber usually ignites best.
The effect I'm thinking about maybe in the WSM & WSSM style cases.There was a article from winchester's developement of those cartridges it had a drawing that showed how the primer flame could go up and hit the base of the bullet and curl around the shoulder back toward the base.The shoulder angle was specific to do it best. Makes more power with less powder.Something on that order was what I was thinking the AI did also,don't know,been a long time since I got into the Ackley stuff.
The effect I'm thinking about maybe in the WSM & WSSM style cases.There was a article from winchester's developement of those cartridges it had a drawing that showed how the primer flame could go up and hit the base of the bullet and curl around the shoulder back toward the base.The shoulder angle was specific to do it best. Makes more power with less powder.Something on that order was what I was thinking the AI did also,don't know,been a long time since I got into the Ackley stuff.
Kachok
Member
Hemi heads with sparkplugs in the center of the head are a tradeoff, more complete combustion, but at the cost of some compression, your ultra high compression NA engines are mostly wedge head to make use of the air movement across the hotsopts as internal cooling to maximize possable compression. Though that is changing now with the widespread use of direct injection and more strict emmissions standards. Shape of combustion chamber and fine tuning of ignition can make all the difference in the world. That goes for engines and cartrages, that is why I do put some stock in the WSMs more efficient design, if you compare the 270 WSM vs the 270 Wby you will find that the WSM can actualty run neck and neck with the Wby burning alot less powder. I have posted that breakdown several times before.
Striker Fired
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They made up for the loss of compression by dumping another couple fl. oz. of nitromethane per stroke.
You were talking about some using 115gr for elk ,a few years ago in Wyoming I ran into a local couple on horseback,they were hunting elk.I talked a bit to them and noticed the smallish cartridges in a leather strap,I asked about them,they were .243.both were shooting elk with .243,he claimed less than 100yrds through the lungs will kill em! That is pushing it to me. I'm sure it can be done,but so can wounding one.
You were talking about some using 115gr for elk ,a few years ago in Wyoming I ran into a local couple on horseback,they were hunting elk.I talked a bit to them and noticed the smallish cartridges in a leather strap,I asked about them,they were .243.both were shooting elk with .243,he claimed less than 100yrds through the lungs will kill em! That is pushing it to me. I'm sure it can be done,but so can wounding one.
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Kachok
Member
I went gun shopping today looking for the parent action for my project, I found a new Savage 110 (30-06) Package deal for under $400, I am no expert at building project guns, but it would be hard to beat the 110 action, the idiotproof barrel nut headspaceing, free floating barrel, and floating bolt face make accuracy easier then most for sure, the accutrigger does not hurt either plus they have a strong aftermarket. I figure I can use the package (Bushnell) scope for a .22 or something. Best recoil pad I have ever seen on a factory gun too.
41 Mag
Member
Kachok,
I have to say that the 25-06 has been my sweetheart caliber for quite a few years. Maybe not as long as some but long enough to have been able to wring out plenty of different loads in order to know what works, and works well. There are not as many weights in this caliber as in some but the ones there are will cover your needs up to and including elk if needed.
This said, perhaps the best of both worlds can be had using the 110gr Nosler Accubond, and/or the 115gr Partition. With either of these you will be able to get your velocities up in the 3100-3200fps range easily and with no major issue regarding pressures. They will both shot flat enough you should easily be able use a duplex retical to precisely place shots out to 400yds.
With my standard version I have been shooting almost the same load for close to 20yrs and haven't seen much it couldn't handle. I used the 115gr Partition loaded over RL-22 for 3150fps out of the factory Remington 24" tube. For whitetail it is simply a non issue when placed in the shoulder region. This particular rifle also shoots the 100gr and 115gr Barnes X, Partition, and the Ballistic Tip all into less than 2" combined at 200yds. The individual groups are equal to the one posted below. I have taken a skunk at 285yds with a head shot using the Barnes, and whacked a yote at just over 350 one morning sitting atop a wobbly tri-pod stand using the Partition. I do admit however I missed the exact spot I was aiming by about an inch, and instead of hitting him right between the eyes I managed to hit just below his left eye. I felt this HAD to be due to the stand wobbling in the breeze however, as I know it couldn't have been me. I never really liked the BT as it just seemed to be a bit more explosive than I felt was needed on deer, and for a hog was simply like hitting them with a grenade. With the 100gr bullets I found nothing better than IMR-4831, and as mentioned with the heavier ones I used RL-22. There might be better powders for individual rifles, but overall, you will find the majority of accurate loads used by folks will be with these powders and there has to be some reason for that.
I decided a few years back to pass this rifle over to my daughter, since we usually fought over it anyway, and in the process, I picked up a box of the then new 110gr Accubonds. While my bud and I were shooting one afternoon I decided to give them a try and simply swapped 5 of them out for the Partition changing nothing else. We actually had to ride out to the target to see that they all went through the same somewhat enlarged hole at 200yds. Since then she and my grandson have used them to take some nice deer from our property over the past 4-5yrs.
Here is a shot of my grandson's first group past 100yds. He was simply shooting up some old ammo I had sitting around for it to get in some trigger time. I had the target set up at 235yds due to working on a max point blank zero with another rifle.
After he managed to run a few dozen rounds through it, we moved the target out to 250 so I could check the zero on it with the hunting loads. I cleaned it, and fired one fouler and two for group. The wind was bumping along at around 15 or so and gusting up a bit more that day so I didn't bother with adjusting the scope. For the most part I felt it was about as good as I had left it the previous season. This is the 110gr Accubond loaded over the RL-22 load I also use for the 115gr. I have checked the velocity several times and it is consistent at or around the 3250fps mark.
The year I passed that rifle over to the daughter I built my 25-06 AI. I had been wanting one for quite a while and this gave me a good excuse. I found a donor 30-06, ordered a Broughton 5C 28" 1-9 #4 barrel for it and when finished up it was definitely much more rifle than my previous standard version. I went with the faster twist in order to use up some Wildcat 125 and 130gr bullets I had, and had hoped to be able to get some 142gr that I also had, to shoot. The latter however simply can't be pushed fast enough to stabilize. This didn't bother me too much however as the standard 120 through the custom 130's will all shoot as good as the above rifle does out to 300yds.
I managed to find a source who had a bunch of the old Remington 120gr CL's, and purchased a bunch of them simply to use them for FF loads, but after finding out how well they group, I am now using them as my standard bullet. I haven't had this one out as much as I did the other, but I did manage to get this small hog at 275yds with an ear hole shot, resting over the hood of the truck in my back pasture. I was using the 125gr Wildcat,
I then got this ol brute the following weekend in similar fashion but offhand at about 110yds. He hit the ground so fast I actually thought I missed him as he was headed into the brush. This one was using the 120gr Remington.
I had my doubts on how the Remington held up, but when we dressed him out it was plain to see that the 3350fps muzzle velocity wasn't going to be a factor with these bullets. Here is the one I recovered from the hogs above.
There are a few more pics in my 2010 Hunting album at the bottom link under my sig, which show a few more of the hog and the damage done by the CL, as well as a few with the daughter and grandsons deer they got with the standard version with the laminate stock.
I am hopeful that the AI version will serve me as well as the standard version did, and if I were to do anything differently I would stick with the standard 1-10 twist. I believe it would allow a tad more velocity with equal loads and a bit less pressure. This said I simply used the standard load data and worked up incrementally measuring cases, watching primers, and velocities as I went. I did find what the max was with the powders I worked with and also the bullets I had chosen to use before I managed to blow anything apart. I can say this however, the 3350fps with the 120gr is plenty safe in this particular rifle. I have gotten over a dozen loads from the initial 20 cases I picked out of 100I have FF'ed, which have shown no signs of primer pocket looseness. To me that in of it's self is a testament to the particular load I am using.
Good luck with your build, I doubt that once you get it done you will have much if any issue finding a great shooting load. The hard part is deciding on which one to settle on.
I have to say that the 25-06 has been my sweetheart caliber for quite a few years. Maybe not as long as some but long enough to have been able to wring out plenty of different loads in order to know what works, and works well. There are not as many weights in this caliber as in some but the ones there are will cover your needs up to and including elk if needed.
This said, perhaps the best of both worlds can be had using the 110gr Nosler Accubond, and/or the 115gr Partition. With either of these you will be able to get your velocities up in the 3100-3200fps range easily and with no major issue regarding pressures. They will both shot flat enough you should easily be able use a duplex retical to precisely place shots out to 400yds.
With my standard version I have been shooting almost the same load for close to 20yrs and haven't seen much it couldn't handle. I used the 115gr Partition loaded over RL-22 for 3150fps out of the factory Remington 24" tube. For whitetail it is simply a non issue when placed in the shoulder region. This particular rifle also shoots the 100gr and 115gr Barnes X, Partition, and the Ballistic Tip all into less than 2" combined at 200yds. The individual groups are equal to the one posted below. I have taken a skunk at 285yds with a head shot using the Barnes, and whacked a yote at just over 350 one morning sitting atop a wobbly tri-pod stand using the Partition. I do admit however I missed the exact spot I was aiming by about an inch, and instead of hitting him right between the eyes I managed to hit just below his left eye. I felt this HAD to be due to the stand wobbling in the breeze however, as I know it couldn't have been me.
I never really liked the BT as it just seemed to be a bit more explosive than I felt was needed on deer, and for a hog was simply like hitting them with a grenade. With the 100gr bullets I found nothing better than IMR-4831, and as mentioned with the heavier ones I used RL-22. There might be better powders for individual rifles, but overall, you will find the majority of accurate loads used by folks will be with these powders and there has to be some reason for that. I decided a few years back to pass this rifle over to my daughter, since we usually fought over it anyway, and in the process, I picked up a box of the then new 110gr Accubonds. While my bud and I were shooting one afternoon I decided to give them a try and simply swapped 5 of them out for the Partition changing nothing else. We actually had to ride out to the target to see that they all went through the same somewhat enlarged hole at 200yds. Since then she and my grandson have used them to take some nice deer from our property over the past 4-5yrs.
Here is a shot of my grandson's first group past 100yds. He was simply shooting up some old ammo I had sitting around for it to get in some trigger time. I had the target set up at 235yds due to working on a max point blank zero with another rifle.
After he managed to run a few dozen rounds through it, we moved the target out to 250 so I could check the zero on it with the hunting loads. I cleaned it, and fired one fouler and two for group. The wind was bumping along at around 15 or so and gusting up a bit more that day so I didn't bother with adjusting the scope. For the most part I felt it was about as good as I had left it the previous season. This is the 110gr Accubond loaded over the RL-22 load I also use for the 115gr. I have checked the velocity several times and it is consistent at or around the 3250fps mark.
The year I passed that rifle over to the daughter I built my 25-06 AI. I had been wanting one for quite a while and this gave me a good excuse. I found a donor 30-06, ordered a Broughton 5C 28" 1-9 #4 barrel for it and when finished up it was definitely much more rifle than my previous standard version. I went with the faster twist in order to use up some Wildcat 125 and 130gr bullets I had, and had hoped to be able to get some 142gr that I also had, to shoot. The latter however simply can't be pushed fast enough to stabilize. This didn't bother me too much however as the standard 120 through the custom 130's will all shoot as good as the above rifle does out to 300yds.
I managed to find a source who had a bunch of the old Remington 120gr CL's, and purchased a bunch of them simply to use them for FF loads, but after finding out how well they group, I am now using them as my standard bullet. I haven't had this one out as much as I did the other, but I did manage to get this small hog at 275yds with an ear hole shot, resting over the hood of the truck in my back pasture. I was using the 125gr Wildcat,
I then got this ol brute the following weekend in similar fashion but offhand at about 110yds. He hit the ground so fast I actually thought I missed him as he was headed into the brush. This one was using the 120gr Remington.
I had my doubts on how the Remington held up, but when we dressed him out it was plain to see that the 3350fps muzzle velocity wasn't going to be a factor with these bullets. Here is the one I recovered from the hogs above.
There are a few more pics in my 2010 Hunting album at the bottom link under my sig, which show a few more of the hog and the damage done by the CL, as well as a few with the daughter and grandsons deer they got with the standard version with the laminate stock.
I am hopeful that the AI version will serve me as well as the standard version did, and if I were to do anything differently I would stick with the standard 1-10 twist. I believe it would allow a tad more velocity with equal loads and a bit less pressure. This said I simply used the standard load data and worked up incrementally measuring cases, watching primers, and velocities as I went. I did find what the max was with the powders I worked with and also the bullets I had chosen to use before I managed to blow anything apart. I can say this however, the 3350fps with the 120gr is plenty safe in this particular rifle. I have gotten over a dozen loads from the initial 20 cases I picked out of 100I have FF'ed, which have shown no signs of primer pocket looseness. To me that in of it's self is a testament to the particular load I am using.
Good luck with your build, I doubt that once you get it done you will have much if any issue finding a great shooting load. The hard part is deciding on which one to settle on.
Kachok
Member
^ Nice data I think I would use a Partition at that kind of speed, but if CLs work for you stick with it. I still don't understand the how the 25-06 can vary so much in speed, reloading manuals are consistanlty much slower then what handloaders swear are safe loads in their rifles.
I think I would use a Partition at that kind of speed, but if CLs work for you stick with it. I still don't understand the how the 25-06 can vary so much in speed, reloading manuals are consistanlty much slower then what handloaders swear are safe loads in their rifles.Mine has no magic spell on it when it comes to speed. I've seen 3400 fps advertised for the 87 gr with IMR4350 and mine got just below that. Then came RL19, with this one I can hit over 3500 fps. A friend uses RL17 and gets 3660 fps from his. Mine is just a little slower at 3600 fps but I haven't pushed it beyond this load yet.
When I first got my rifle I tried to go beyond published loads with very little luck. So when someone claims some really outrageous speed take it with a grain of salt. Mine now has a new Krieger barrel and I haven't tried to push it yet.
The RL powders by Alliant offer more speed then IMR and I get better accuracy. I've left the IMR powders for the RL series now.
The 100 gr seems to have a speed advantage and I've seen many shoot the 100 gr faster then the 87 gr, figure that one. Mine would move the 100 gr as fast as the 87 gr but I always stayed with the 87 gr for varmint and coyote.
The 75 gr was a speed demon at 3750 fps but just didn't work. I noticed it ran out of steam at 300 yards. I could hit ground hogs with it but it didn't kill them instantly like the 87 gr did.
When I first got my rifle I tried to go beyond published loads with very little luck. So when someone claims some really outrageous speed take it with a grain of salt. Mine now has a new Krieger barrel and I haven't tried to push it yet.
The RL powders by Alliant offer more speed then IMR and I get better accuracy. I've left the IMR powders for the RL series now.
The 100 gr seems to have a speed advantage and I've seen many shoot the 100 gr faster then the 87 gr, figure that one. Mine would move the 100 gr as fast as the 87 gr but I always stayed with the 87 gr for varmint and coyote.
The 75 gr was a speed demon at 3750 fps but just didn't work. I noticed it ran out of steam at 300 yards. I could hit ground hogs with it but it didn't kill them instantly like the 87 gr did.
41 Mag
Member
Kachok,
When I worked up the load for the 115gr and RL-22, I used the data for a 117gr listed in I believe the Hornady 4th Edition manual, it listed the Remington 700 with a 24" barrel as the test rifle. Since this is what mine is I figured I would give it a try. I did not surpass the top listed load for this powder, and the velocity is where the book said it should be, which isn't very common to be.
For my 100gr loads, I played with several powders, but never got the overall accuracy out of any other that I got from the IMR-4831 with the three different bullets I used. At the time I was playing with several rifles and several different bullets, and wanted to find a powder for each that would shoot the Barnes X, the Partition, and the Ballistic Tip all with one powder and one load. While I managed to have some success, with the 25-06 and IMR-4831, the only 100gr bullet I found that would not stay in the above mentioned 2" cluster, was the Sierra. With it I did eventually get it to shoot the same tiny groups as the others but I had to switch to IMR-4350 in order to do so. My velocities for all of these bullets never exceeded 3375fps at 15' from the muzzle. In fact the average for everything I kept records on was just about 3350fps on the nose with a SD of around 25.
I have used the same load with several makes of brass and not found much if any difference in groups. The mainstay of my cases are Remington, but I also use just about as many Winchester. No matte the case, I have always used WIn-WLR primers and not had any issues with getting them lit.
I tried several 120gr bullets in that rifle, but for what ever reason once I hit the 2900 - 2950fps range, I also hit flattened primers. It seemed to make no difference which powder I used, or what my seating depth was, they simply didn't want to get any faster. While this isn't anything major, there was plenty of accuracy from the ones I DID develope but the Speer was the top dog. It was the only one which could equal the tiny clover leaf groups of the lighter ones.
Don't sweat what you read about this that or the other fellows velocity. Trust me when I say, load to the books, and load for accuracy, and you will not be disappointed. For the ranges your looking to use it at, pick a good mid weight bullet, and go have fun. There are 115 - 117gr bullets being made by just about every manufacturer, that will get you where you want to be with very respectable velocities. Stick with the medium slow powders, and you will find hitting a good combination much easier.
Good luck.
When I worked up the load for the 115gr and RL-22, I used the data for a 117gr listed in I believe the Hornady 4th Edition manual, it listed the Remington 700 with a 24" barrel as the test rifle. Since this is what mine is I figured I would give it a try. I did not surpass the top listed load for this powder, and the velocity is where the book said it should be, which isn't very common to be.
For my 100gr loads, I played with several powders, but never got the overall accuracy out of any other that I got from the IMR-4831 with the three different bullets I used. At the time I was playing with several rifles and several different bullets, and wanted to find a powder for each that would shoot the Barnes X, the Partition, and the Ballistic Tip all with one powder and one load. While I managed to have some success, with the 25-06 and IMR-4831, the only 100gr bullet I found that would not stay in the above mentioned 2" cluster, was the Sierra. With it I did eventually get it to shoot the same tiny groups as the others but I had to switch to IMR-4350 in order to do so. My velocities for all of these bullets never exceeded 3375fps at 15' from the muzzle. In fact the average for everything I kept records on was just about 3350fps on the nose with a SD of around 25.
I have used the same load with several makes of brass and not found much if any difference in groups. The mainstay of my cases are Remington, but I also use just about as many Winchester. No matte the case, I have always used WIn-WLR primers and not had any issues with getting them lit.
I tried several 120gr bullets in that rifle, but for what ever reason once I hit the 2900 - 2950fps range, I also hit flattened primers. It seemed to make no difference which powder I used, or what my seating depth was, they simply didn't want to get any faster. While this isn't anything major, there was plenty of accuracy from the ones I DID develope but the Speer was the top dog. It was the only one which could equal the tiny clover leaf groups of the lighter ones.
Don't sweat what you read about this that or the other fellows velocity. Trust me when I say, load to the books, and load for accuracy, and you will not be disappointed. For the ranges your looking to use it at, pick a good mid weight bullet, and go have fun. There are 115 - 117gr bullets being made by just about every manufacturer, that will get you where you want to be with very respectable velocities. Stick with the medium slow powders, and you will find hitting a good combination much easier.
Good luck.
BrainOnSigs
Member
My favorite pronghorn caliber! Perfect for 100-400 yard shots.
I took my last buck at 300 yards using my Cooper Model 54 Excalibur in .25-06 (hand load). He dropped straight down.
My buck:
My load:
Winchester brass
Remington 9-1/2 primer
100 gr Sierra Pro Hunter SP bullet (#1620)
52 grs of Hodgdon H4831SC powder
It will shoot 3/8" groups all day long at 100 yards.
I took my last buck at 300 yards using my Cooper Model 54 Excalibur in .25-06 (hand load). He dropped straight down.
My buck:
My load:
Winchester brass
Remington 9-1/2 primer
100 gr Sierra Pro Hunter SP bullet (#1620)
52 grs of Hodgdon H4831SC powder
It will shoot 3/8" groups all day long at 100 yards.
quartermaster
Member
I'm not sure how I missed this thread before. I don't know what gives the 25-06 the velocity over the published in the reloading manuals. I had 3 of them. One is a Rem BDL, 1 is a Rem SPS and one was a Rem Mountain rifle. The Mountain rifle action is now being used to make an Ackley. When I got the BDL around 1991 and started loading for it, the max load listed in the Lyman 47th for IMR 4831 was I believe 56 grains. I worked my way up to that and managed to get 3425 fps out of it and very accurate groups consistantly with 100 gr ballistic tips .010 off the lands. The primers started to show a slight fattening at that point. I'm pretty sure that this rifle has a 24" tube. I kept that load for quite a few years loading 100 at a time, but found myself having to seat the bullets out a bit further as time went on due to what I figure is throat erosion. I now backed the powder off to 55 grains and if my memory serves me correctly, I think I am getting around 3350 with it and the accuracy is still superb. My SPS started showing pressure signs before the max load with the same 100 grain head. I think I'm at 3250 with that and also very accurate
I don't want to get into the inherently accurate caliber topic, but everyone that I know who has one, loves it. I wouldn't hesitate to reccomend to anyone to get that caliber.
I've never compared the difference between the 6.5-06 and the 25, I may do that later, but it would seem to me that they should be similar given the same case and a head with a .007 difference in diameter. I guess the bullet selection is much better with the .264.
I stuck a post on your last thread about the Ackleys. I hope you let us in on your decision when you make it. Wouldn't it be nice if we hit the lottery?
I see 41Mag had a post on this thread. I got a lot of good info from him on the 25-06 Ackley after I ordered mine. He must have a barrel with a bit faster twist than normal as he gets 130 grain heads or has a friend that does. Reading his posts and checking out his pics, you can tell he didn't just get off the turnip boat.
I believe you can find data in the Sierra manual for the Ackley and also on reloaders nest.
I think all of your choices of calibers that you are contemplating are good ones. It's tough making some of these decision isn't it? Then you have to figure what twist, barrel contour, stock, trigger and so on. It's fun. Just do it. You only live once!
Good luck with whatever you decide.
I don't want to get into the inherently accurate caliber topic, but everyone that I know who has one, loves it. I wouldn't hesitate to reccomend to anyone to get that caliber.
I've never compared the difference between the 6.5-06 and the 25, I may do that later, but it would seem to me that they should be similar given the same case and a head with a .007 difference in diameter. I guess the bullet selection is much better with the .264.
I stuck a post on your last thread about the Ackleys. I hope you let us in on your decision when you make it. Wouldn't it be nice if we hit the lottery?
I see 41Mag had a post on this thread. I got a lot of good info from him on the 25-06 Ackley after I ordered mine. He must have a barrel with a bit faster twist than normal as he gets 130 grain heads or has a friend that does. Reading his posts and checking out his pics, you can tell he didn't just get off the turnip boat.
I believe you can find data in the Sierra manual for the Ackley and also on reloaders nest.
I think all of your choices of calibers that you are contemplating are good ones. It's tough making some of these decision isn't it? Then you have to figure what twist, barrel contour, stock, trigger and so on. It's fun. Just do it. You only live once!
Good luck with whatever you decide.
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