What's the diff btwn Full-A and Semi-A??

[Ughh]

Post-1986 civilian AR-15's are designed to be very difficult to convert to full auto. M16 fire-control parts won't fit.

Under the National Firearms Act as amended in 1986, any gun easily convertible to full auto IS a full auto for the purposes of the law, even if not actually converted. Your friend is incorrect at least with regard to post-1986 civilian AR's; you CANNOT just drill a couple of holes and drop M16 parts in there.


Where in the world would you find a Title 2 full-auto lower that didn't already have an upper on it? That doesn't make sense to me.

Well most common weapons used by law and mil are crap anyways compared brands that we're open to. Famous saying: "Your weapon is made by the lowest bidder" and hypothetically, if you did find a FA rifle and you had your own quality upper, then why stick with the lowre quality upper already on it and not use your, perhaps, match grade barrel with all the accessories that you already have on it instead.

 

[AK103K]

I think it's funny that people here will engage in the most fantastic hair splitting and nitpicking when it comes to the proper dimensions for this or that part or the correct nomenclature for some obscure item yet they don't think correct English is worth their time. You know of course that the people at work are laughing behind your back at your every memo and email, right? Or maybe you're like one man I work with who is expressly forbidden to write to anyone outside the building.

Or maybe its simply talking at a level that seemed appropriate for the comments. I'm assuming it was understood, but I can jazz it up for those that seem to need a breathier response....

I'm always amazed at how quickly the politically correct bliss ninnies are, to jump right on anyone who might simply ask a simple question, seeking a direct and simple answer, and chide them with their fearful and hand wringing concerns, many times stating the person or post should be reported, for asking something that they seem to believe, might be forbidden knowledge of some sort, and we'll all get in trouble by someone in authority (Todd forbid!) at the mere mention of whatever it is.

There, is that better? Did I spell everything right and use proper punctuation?

Personally, I still think the "teacher, teacher" thing is more appropriate, simple but direct, and hopefully, not to far over those possibly "educated beyond their intelligence" type heads.

 

[mickeydim468]

AK103K wrote:

not to far over those possibly

you spelled "too" wrong!


Just sayin'! OMG

Mikey!

 

[AK103K]

Well, I did have three choices, and it was a tough decision. I almost took the easy way out and used a number, but I didnt think it would pass inspection.

 

[Zerodefect]

Most of the better Ar's have mipspec uppers and carriers.

The trigger group is the semi auto part. Anyone with a hobbymill and a drill press could make a new trigger group from scratch steel. As with all firearms, its not rocket science or hard to figure out. It may be a good thing to know if your the survivalist TEOWAKI prepared type.

Keep in mind its an instant 10yrs in prison when caught and makes our 2nd ammendment rights even harder to keep.

Having shot full auto AR's/M4's, it's really not needed, my trigger finger on my semi is more than fast enough. As far as getting your class 3 tax stamp and a legal Fa.....you'd be better served investing in a good set of nightvision instead.

 

[Ughh]

lol, ak103, i like what you've said.

My hypothetical question still stands: Would my civ upper with a auto BCG mate with a FA lower from, we'll just say a LEO M16/M4 rifle, and work correctly and safely??

 

[benEzra]

Well most common weapons used by law and mil are crap anyways compared brands that we're open to. Famous saying: "Your weapon is made by the lowest bidder" and hypothetically, if you did find a FA rifle and you had your own quality upper, then why stick with the lowre quality upper already on it and not use your, perhaps, match grade barrel with all the accessories that you already have on it instead.

I am not aware of any LEO AR-15's (or even military M16's/M4's) that are "crap". Colt, FN, S&W, RRA, DPMS are all good guns.

The military chooses the lowest bidder that meets the specifications in the contract. If it meets those specifications IAW the TDP, it's good to go. I assume you're familiar with "the Chart" that often makes its appearance on gun boards, showing which AR's meet the various milspecs? Military rifles and carbines have to meet all of them.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure you would not want to put an upper with a tight match chamber on a full auto lower; you'd end up with a jam-o-matic when it got hot, and you'd lose the match trigger and very tight upper-to-lower fit of the match grade lower.

 

[shadowalker]

You could put a quality AR-15 upper with a M16 bolt carrier on a full auto lower and it would work. M16 bolt carriers are legal to run in AR-15 rifles, the main difference is a fully shrouded firing pin and a little extra mass. There is almost no difference between a good fully shrouded semi auto BCG and a FA BCG.

That said in the vast majority of cases full auto fire in a AR type rifle is counter productive.

Well most common weapons used by law and mil are crap anyways compared brands that we're open to.

benEzra beat me to it, contractors must meet the standard specified by the military.

The rifles manufactured for the military are much better than the majority of AR-15s civilians buy, the common name commercial manufacturers cut a lot of corners and don't follow any standard.

Colt, FN, LMT all build outstanding weapons and have military contracts. RRA and DPMS don't build to mil spec or have military contracts as far as I know.

Some departments issue sub-par rifles such as DPMS but more and more are going top tier and the handguns they get are usually Glocks, S&W M&P or other quality handguns.

 

[hso]

Well when sh*t goes down, we all would want that FA option right?

No

Those of us that have fired these weapons aren't interested in using them in full auto mode for self defense.

 

[AK103K]

Why wouldnt you?

You have it available, and I would assume since you have one, you know how and when to use it, so why not? I know I'd use mine without a second thought.

 

[taliv]

because semi-auto fire is generally more useful than full-auto out of an AR15

 

[AK103K]

"Generally", I'd agree, but its nice to have the option, as well as the experience, to know when its use is appropriate, and how to properly use it.

 

[JShirley]

Even the Army teaches semi-auto when clearing houses, the most dangerous close-range rifle-using activity you can find. FA is for support weapons and submachine guns, which the M4 has effectively replaced for almost all US service members.

J

 

[shadowalker]

Well when sh*t goes down, we all would want that FA option right?

I'd also pass on full auto, there are very few situations where it is useful. Well aimed fire with high quality ammunition is more effective.

 

[AK103K]

I suppose it depends on what side of that activity your on too, and just how well your troops are trained in its use. I think a lot of what the army does, is based on the lowest common denominator, and what works best in that respect.

 

[azyogi]

Your main worry for SHTF should be logistics, as in how are you going to feed a full auto. Just cause I'm a contrary old cuss, my SHTF long gun is a 700 BDL but that's just me.

 

[Ranb]

Where do some of you guys think machine guns come from? They do not come from a chocolate cow drinking from a chocolate stream on a chocolate farm.

They come from a person or company that fills out a few forms; pays a few fees and taxes. Then they have a federal firearms license and are a Special Occupational Taxpayer. Any person or any Corporation that resides or exists in a state where this is legal can apply to the BATFE to do this.

Talking about making machine guns is no big deal. Just know how to do it legally. I have a couple of books on how to manufacture machine guns. I bought them on E-bay. Nobody including the ATF cares at all. When I get my FFL/SOT some day, I will make my own title 2 weapons such as silencers, SBS/SBR's and machine guns instead of paying a $200 on each silencer like I do now.

When a person asks about making a machine gun or how to convert a semi-auto to a machine gun, just make sure they know the legal steps required to do it. Just telling a person that it is illegal ensures that the opportunity to educate people on the forum about the legalities of firearms in the USA is missed. This does no one any good.

Ranb

 

[hso]

FA is good for suppressive fire, but the problems of keeping the thing fed is a nightmare for anyone without good logistical support. The other issue is burning up/breaking parts. Again, needing good logistical support.

The military went to burst fire to provide a viable option between dumping your ammo laying down on the trigger and single rounds. The challenge then is control for accurate fire and support to keep the weapon fed and parts available for the high wear rates FA produces. You can train and train for the former by learning to make controlled bursts. Logistically, neither of which any of us are likely to have at the level of the Army.

 

[AK103K]

Training solves most of the problems. Burst fire is unnecessary, and just compensates, or attempts to compensate, for a lack of training. Like I said earlier, its the lowest common denominator factor, and more about cutting costs than addressing the problem. You'd think proper training would be cheaper in the long run, but I guess its not.

It seems the consensus is that the gun will always be in full auto and used that way all the time, which isnt the case, or at least it shouldnt be. Even so, its not really an issue if proper training is present. Even with guns that are full auto only, with many of them, you can still easily get single round "bursts" on demand, once you know the trigger.


As far as breaking parts, its a definite maybe, and dependent on how your using and maintaining the gun. If the gun has a selector and your keeping it in semi most of the time, as you should be, your breakage rate will pretty much be the same as a semi only gun.

Even when used in full most of the time, depending on how much you shoot it, you may or may not have breakage. My MP5 had well into the upper tens of thousands of rounds through it over 20+ years of constant use, and in all that time, the only thing that ever broke, was a roller retainer, and the gun was still functional with it broken. I have a MAC with a similar track record (actually no breakages in 20+ years now, and probably more rounds than the HK through it), and most consider MAC's to be junk.

I've been shooting these things for a good long time now, and between mine, and those of friends, I cant really remember all that much stuff ever breaking, and we were shooting them on a constant basis, especially back when the ammo was dirt cheap.

 

[JShirley]

The actual reason for the decades-long training by the Army to fire at any opportunity was bad research/disinformation by S.L.A. Marshall in Men Against Fire: The Problem of Battle Command , which was highly influential, and shaped Army training doctrine for many years. FA from a rifle was part of this movement, as Marshall claimed that, even in combat, most soldiers would not fire their weapons.

Marshall lied.

 

[Ranb]

In the book On Killing, the claim was made that Marshall interviewed many soldiers and came to his conclusion that only about 20% of them were able to put out any effective fire based upon their refusal to kill under any circumstances. This was changed as a result of different training in the years to follow so that in the Vietnam war the number of soldiers shooting to kill rose to over 75%. Richard Winters in his book, Beyond Band of Brothers, disputed the 20% claim as far as his men were concerned.

Ranb

 

[1911Tuner]

Once upon a time, back in the SP-1 days...the AR15 was very simple to convert to selective fire. It was reliable, and safe. I never saw one that was so converted have a problem. I won't go into specifics as to how and what was required other than to mention an ingenious little invention known simply as the "Drop-in Auto Sear" that made its debut early on in the AR15's production history.

Drop-in Auto Sears (tm) have been illegal to possess since November of 1981 unless serialized and registered as an NFA item if manufactured post 11/81 with the burden of proof of date of manufacture in the possessor's pocket. Eventually, it became illegal to have one in your possession unregistered ...regardless of whether or not the possessor actually had an AR15 rifle and regardless of the date of manufacture. With that device, so simple was the conversion that the BATFE ruling was that the auto sear alone was a de facto machine gun, with all restrictions and penalties in force.

 

[jmorris]

Ok so let me ask you guys this in a purely SHTF situation. Well when sh*t goes down, we all would want that FA option right?

If you have never trained with it much less knew dam sure it was stone cold reliable you would be better off with a semi. M16’s spend a lot of life with the selector on semi.

 

[Ughh]

I am not aware of any LEO AR-15's (or even military M16's/M4's) that are "crap". Colt, FN, S&W, RRA, DPMS are all good guns.

The military chooses the lowest bidder that meets the specifications in the contract. If it meets those specifications IAW the TDP, it's good to go. I assume you're familiar with "the Chart" that often makes its appearance on gun boards, showing which AR's meet the various milspecs? Military rifles and carbines have to meet all of them.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure you would not want to put an upper with a tight match chamber on a full auto lower; you'd end up with a jam-o-matic when it got hot, and you'd lose the match trigger and very tight upper-to-lower fit of the match grade lower.

Well, i don't mean to bash on them... your right, those are respectable brands, but compared to what we're open to?? isn't it crap?? :

LWRC, Noveske rifleworks, Daniel defense, Larue Tactical, Nighthawk customs... the list is ENDLESS.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

McGyver can make it full auto in 2 minutes with a shoelace and some juicy fruit gum.