RON in PA
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Nichts!
What's the difference between luger and parabellum?
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Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
There is no difference between the 9mm luger and 9mm parabellem
but there are many different 9mm/.355 cartridges
9x17 AKA 9mm kurz, 380 auto
9x18 AKA 9mm makarov
9x19 AKA luger, parabellem,
9x21
9x21.5 AKA S&W 9mmTSW
9x23
38 super, has a 355 bullet
The following all have 357/358 diameter bullets
38 short colt, shortest
38 special, middle length
357 magnum, longest
357 maximum, longer still
Stupid CCW training guy
There are probably a dozen more cartridges in 9mm but this covers the basics.
but there are many different 9mm/.355 cartridges
9x17 AKA 9mm kurz, 380 auto
9x18 AKA 9mm makarov
9x19 AKA luger, parabellem,
9x21
9x21.5 AKA S&W 9mmTSW
9x23
38 super, has a 355 bullet
The following all have 357/358 diameter bullets
38 short colt, shortest
38 special, middle length
357 magnum, longest
357 maximum, longer still
Stupid CCW training guy
There are probably a dozen more cartridges in 9mm but this covers the basics.
cidirkona
Member
The CCW training guy said that the bullets were all the same 9mm size, and the barrels were the same diameter, but the different numbers just come from different places inside the barrel...
-Colin
-Colin
Actually the .38 predates the 9mm. It's name derives from the days when it was a heeled bullet and was .38" in diameter. Later it was changed and the lube grooves could then fit inside of the case and became a .357" diameter. Your CCW guy needs to brush up on his cartridge history.
Paul "Fitz" Jones
Moderator - Emeritus
Reloading manuals tell the story
There can be all kinds of opinions and all the opinionators ought to read their reloading manuals and the diameters of the major bullet companies bullets and the weapons manufacturers stated calibers that the manuals write about.
I have sold thousands of progressive and other reloaders, bullet molds and only sold the standard posted sizes in the literature available to meM my sales were for lead bullets in Saeco and Star lubers and I only stocked .356 for 9mm, .358 for .38/357, .410 for .41 mag, .430 for .44Spl,. 429 for .44mag and .452 for .45acp. I advised anyone wanting a different diameter could look somwhere else for them.
The differences between the 44spl and the .44magnum was because of the much higher pressures generated in the magnum required in my opinion a thousanths smaller bullet.
I do have some experience in the shooting industry
There can be all kinds of opinions and all the opinionators ought to read their reloading manuals and the diameters of the major bullet companies bullets and the weapons manufacturers stated calibers that the manuals write about.
I have sold thousands of progressive and other reloaders, bullet molds and only sold the standard posted sizes in the literature available to meM my sales were for lead bullets in Saeco and Star lubers and I only stocked .356 for 9mm, .358 for .38/357, .410 for .41 mag, .430 for .44Spl,. 429 for .44mag and .452 for .45acp. I advised anyone wanting a different diameter could look somwhere else for them.
The differences between the 44spl and the .44magnum was because of the much higher pressures generated in the magnum required in my opinion a thousanths smaller bullet.
I do have some experience in the shooting industry
Zundfolge
Member
Then (you might want to duck because here comes another monkey wrench) you have the Walther PP Super chambered in 9x18 AKA 9mm Police AKA 9mm Ultra but its NOT the same as the 9x18 Makarov (confusing isn't it)
The 9x18 Police is 9.02 mm in diameter whereas the Makarov is 9.2mm. I understand there is also a 9x18 Makarov Modified (sort of a 9mm Mak +p+) but I don't know much about it.
I gotta go lie down now
BluesBear
member
cidirkona,
Since the bullets in a .357 Magnum/Maximum, .38 Speclal/Long Colt/Short Colt are .357" if the the land diameter was only .357 then the bullets would just skim down the lands, not engaging the rifling ang the gasses blowing past in the grooves.
Also, the Makarov uses a .360" bullet and loses most of it's accuracy if loaded with .355" bullets.
Since the bullets in a .357 Magnum/Maximum, .38 Speclal/Long Colt/Short Colt are .357" if the the land diameter was only .357 then the bullets would just skim down the lands, not engaging the rifling ang the gasses blowing past in the grooves.
Also, the Makarov uses a .360" bullet and loses most of it's accuracy if loaded with .355" bullets.
cidirkona
Member
Why isn't .380 in there? (9x17, right?)
-Colin
-Colin
shep854
Member
Parabellum-"Prepare for war" That settles it! The 9mm Para is a practice round! Sez so on the label!
Get a .45 ACP for the real thing!
Get a .45 ACP for the real thing!
shep854
Member
tz99 wrote, "OK, where does the .357 Sig fit in?"
It doesn't. Since it's a .40 cartridge necked down to 9mm, rather than straight or tapered, it would require a new category of cartridges.
ASIDE: I remember arguing with a person, otherwise knowlegeable, who insisted that "parabellum" is based on "parabola", ie, the curved shape of the bullet. Problem is, all bullets have a parabola shape of some sort.
It doesn't. Since it's a .40 cartridge necked down to 9mm, rather than straight or tapered, it would require a new category of cartridges.
ASIDE: I remember arguing with a person, otherwise knowlegeable, who insisted that "parabellum" is based on "parabola", ie, the curved shape of the bullet. Problem is, all bullets have a parabola shape of some sort.
Sean Smith
Member
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Not by a long shot. Ever seen a wadcutter, semi wadcutter, truncated cone...?
>Ok then wheres the .357 sig fit in?
Added the .357 SIG to the graphic above. As stated, it is radically different than any of the other rounds discussed here...
From ammoguide: The .357 SIG was officially announced in the summer of 1994, a joint project by SIG Arms and Federal to modify the .40 S&W to use 125gr 9mm bullets. The result is a small, bottle-necked cartridge tailored for auto-loaders with ballistics that compare favorably with the classic but much larger .357 Remington Magnum.
The bottle-neck shape is particularly well-suited to feeding reliably in semi-auto pistols, an important consideration for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.
The .357 SIG's maximum working pressure of 40,000 psi is 5,000 psi greater than .40 S&W, and the lower-wall of .357 SIG cases are correspondingly stronger.
.40 S&W pistols are easily converted to .357 SIG by simple barrel replacement. Despite the similarities, however, the cartridges have different headspacing and interior wall profiles.
A February 1996 HANDGUNS article concluded "Even though it generated the second highest muzzle energy, [.357 SIG: 536 ft/lbs; 10mm: 584 ft/lbs], of the four [guns] we tried, it seemed easily the most pleasant to shoot, and both of us shot it fast and well." Reloaders are cautioned to insure that the short case mouth grips the bullet securely during recoil.
The standard .357 SIG ammo sports a 125 grain 9mm bullet with a muzzle velocity oft 1350 fps, 510 ft/lbs of energy.
BTW, the tool to generate those images (and case dimensions and more) is at http://AmmoGuide.com/ - look on the right side for "Visual Comparison Tool".
With that and a paint program (to copy & paste the images), you're all set.
Mike Haas
Added the .357 SIG to the graphic above. As stated, it is radically different than any of the other rounds discussed here...
From ammoguide: The .357 SIG was officially announced in the summer of 1994, a joint project by SIG Arms and Federal to modify the .40 S&W to use 125gr 9mm bullets. The result is a small, bottle-necked cartridge tailored for auto-loaders with ballistics that compare favorably with the classic but much larger .357 Remington Magnum.
The bottle-neck shape is particularly well-suited to feeding reliably in semi-auto pistols, an important consideration for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.
The .357 SIG's maximum working pressure of 40,000 psi is 5,000 psi greater than .40 S&W, and the lower-wall of .357 SIG cases are correspondingly stronger.
.40 S&W pistols are easily converted to .357 SIG by simple barrel replacement. Despite the similarities, however, the cartridges have different headspacing and interior wall profiles.
A February 1996 HANDGUNS article concluded "Even though it generated the second highest muzzle energy, [.357 SIG: 536 ft/lbs; 10mm: 584 ft/lbs], of the four [guns] we tried, it seemed easily the most pleasant to shoot, and both of us shot it fast and well." Reloaders are cautioned to insure that the short case mouth grips the bullet securely during recoil.
The standard .357 SIG ammo sports a 125 grain 9mm bullet with a muzzle velocity oft 1350 fps, 510 ft/lbs of energy.
BTW, the tool to generate those images (and case dimensions and more) is at http://AmmoGuide.com/ - look on the right side for "Visual Comparison Tool".
With that and a paint program (to copy & paste the images), you're all set.
Mike Haas
I love how SIG-Sauer takes credit for the .357 SIG - as though they've invented the wheel, sliced bread, and sex.
Guess they never heard of the 7.63mm Mauser, the 7.65mm Parabellum or the 8mm Nambu. . . .
But then, you listen to Beretta's spew about the CX4 Storm long enough and you tend to forget about things like the Villar Perosa and the Bergmann MP18i as well.
Ahh, well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Guess they never heard of the 7.63mm Mauser, the 7.65mm Parabellum or the 8mm Nambu. . . .
But then, you listen to Beretta's spew about the CX4 Storm long enough and you tend to forget about things like the Villar Perosa and the Bergmann MP18i as well.
Ahh, well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
jAK-47
Member
I once had a really bad case of pneumonia. Man, talk about Gross Lugers!
But seriously, giving different names to ammo that is confusing enough is, confusing. When I bought my first AK I almost bought 7.62 ammo. Then I found out that usually, when you say 7.62 it's assumed you mean NATO and that's .308. 7.62 NATO = .308 whereas AK 7.62 is 7.62X39.
My CZ-52 just arrived at my FFL and I'm going to pick it up. Now that I know better to do a little research on these things I won't be stupid enough to try and put my AK or FAL rounds into my new pistol Instead, I bought 7.62X25 ammo from Natchez (got the very last 4 boxes). CTD just got in a BUNCH of it so...
Asking about 9X19 vs. Parabellum was NOT a stupid question. If a stupid question is going to be asked I'll do it
I took 5 years of Latin and it does my heart good to see it didn't go to waste! veni, vidi, shoti - I came, I saw, I shot
Thanks,
jAK-47
But seriously, giving different names to ammo that is confusing enough is, confusing. When I bought my first AK I almost bought 7.62 ammo. Then I found out that usually, when you say 7.62 it's assumed you mean NATO and that's .308. 7.62 NATO = .308 whereas AK 7.62 is 7.62X39.
My CZ-52 just arrived at my FFL and I'm going to pick it up. Now that I know better to do a little research on these things I won't be stupid enough to try and put my AK or FAL rounds into my new pistol
Instead, I bought 7.62X25 ammo from Natchez (got the very last 4 boxes). CTD just got in a BUNCH of it so...Asking about 9X19 vs. Parabellum was NOT a stupid question. If a stupid question is going to be asked I'll do it
I took 5 years of Latin and it does my heart good to see it didn't go to waste! veni, vidi, shoti - I came, I saw, I shot
Thanks,
jAK-47
>You don't really want to start the whole "7.62x51mm NATO Does Not Equal .308 Winchester" thread, do you?
Absolutely not. No way. Uh-uh. However...
>Suffice it to say that the two are not the same.
Insofar as military ammo and civilian ammo differ in some pretty major respects, agreed. But after getting permission, Winchester commercialized the .308 Win from the 7.62 NATO spec. The external case dimensions, throat, rifling, are the same despite designation, are they not? And I don't know of a .308 commercial firearm that can't digest 7.62 NATO ammo, do you?
Internally, there are major differences, granted. Commercial brass provides more case volume than military, for example, and one needs to know about such things when reloading. But are you saying that the .308 Win and 7.62 NATO are in some way MORE DIFFERENT than the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO?
Mike
Absolutely not. No way. Uh-uh. However...
>Suffice it to say that the two are not the same.
Insofar as military ammo and civilian ammo differ in some pretty major respects, agreed. But after getting permission, Winchester commercialized the .308 Win from the 7.62 NATO spec. The external case dimensions, throat, rifling, are the same despite designation, are they not? And I don't know of a .308 commercial firearm that can't digest 7.62 NATO ammo, do you?
Internally, there are major differences, granted. Commercial brass provides more case volume than military, for example, and one needs to know about such things when reloading. But are you saying that the .308 Win and 7.62 NATO are in some way MORE DIFFERENT than the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO?
Mike
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