whats wrong with 10mm?

[legion3]

Ruger745: Where is this Sphinx 3000 in 10mm, I didn't see it at their site.

How much $ will that set you back??? Given the price of normal Sphinx guns not a little I wager. Another expensive single action gun? Just what the cartridge needs huh? I also read that the 3000 mags are going for $75 is that true?

Undoubtedly, the 10mm is the ultimate round for self-defense.

No evidence of this at all. The 10mm actually dissapointed more than it ever performed as the ultimate man stopper. Even vs 4 legged critters where it has some good success other wheel gun magnums are probably better.

If it was the "ultimate" it would be carried by far more people (including cops) than it currently is. With cops the 357 Sig and 45 GAP are actually issued, what force actually issues the 10mm?

that's why the FBI tried to adopt it in the 80's.

They did adopt it in 1990 (SW 1076) and it was Bureau issue for a little under 5 years before the Glock 40's took over.

They went with the 40 S&W since they were able to maintain a thinner grip on pistols since the 10mm can be too long for some peoples hands.

The grip on the single stack Smith 1076 is "thinner" that the grips on the Glock 23 which was the Bureaus 40 cal main gun. The 1076 is a bigger overall and much heavier gun but in the grips ???

 

[legion3]

Doesn't the internet eliminate this problem? MidwayUSA is easy to find.

Midway USA has 10mm ammo in their April 2011 sale flyer. Its double tap ammo and its all excellent quality.

Midway does seem to have a lot of ammo choices, several are out of stock (some with no backorder available) but of those they do have I don't see any cheap choices. Do they charge shipping? If so the ammo cost on line seems to be quite pricey.

$18 for 20 rounds of Hornady seems to be the best, which is not to bad I suppose. But $39 and up for 50 rounds...

The problem is two fold somewhat hard to find ammo coupled with often very pricey ammo.

The 10mm has many pluses but often not enough for it to be embraced by the shooting public overall.

 

[10mmluver]

The problem is, the .400 caliber is an excellent penetrater. It OVER penetrates whatever target it encounters unless heavy bone is encountered. The 10mm never gets the chance it fully deserves, the bullet selection is now getting better because of the 40 Slow & Weak's popularity. Yet there are still few people willing to give it the proper chance to prove it self as a great hunter and self protection cartridge. The key is, and always will be, proper bullet selection. Im useing a Hornady XTP 180gr for ALL my Deer hunting with the 10mm and getting excellent results handloading it myself.

 

[Ruger745]

It does, but not for all if shipping equals what your purchase is, that makes it pretty expensive. When I was in Montana last summer, I noticed more 10mm ammo there compared to Colorado and Wyoming.

Sorry, should have elaborated

 

[JoelSteinbach]

Nothing

 

[IdahoLT1]

No evidence of this at all. The 10mm actually dissapointed more than it ever performed as the ultimate man stopper. Even vs 4 legged critters where it has some good success other wheel gun magnums are probably better.

If it was the "ultimate" it would be carried by far more people (including cops) than it currently is. With cops the 357 Sig and 45 GAP are actually issued, what force actually issues the 10mm

Simple physics says it will be at the top of the self defense food chain. There's a reason why its legal to hunt deer with a 10mm in most States and not the 9mm, 40 or 45. If I come across a large bodied threat, I want deep penetrating rounds. A 200gr. bullet @1250fps is better suited for that than a 230gr. one @900fps. There's no other autoloading caliber that can be as powerful, as controllable and put into a compact or even sub compact pistol.

Only a few LE departments issue it but ~10% of the departments authorize its use.

 

[legion3]

Simple physics says it will be at the top of the self defense food chain.

Physics say lots of things but physics never shot some one. (just like Blue books never purchased a gun despite what they say the value is) Do you have any real hard evidence of its street success? I know its a good critter gun but as a manstopper?

Again if this were true then it would be carried by far more people for two legged SD purposes and it isn't.

There's no other autoloading caliber that can be as powerful, as controllable and put into a compact or even sub compact pistol.

What sub compact would that be? The Glock 29 is the smallest 10mm I have seen or owned and its no sub compact and darn near no compact either.

Again if this were true then it would be carried by far more people for SD purposes and it isn't.

Only a few LE departments issue it but ~10% of the departments authorize its use.

Which ones issue it, who are these few? 10% of the total departments authorize it? What tiny, tiny fraction does that come out to be? A needle in a haystack comes to mind. 5 State police forces issue the 45GAP I bet that % is way way more than 10%of overall departments.

Hey I'm glad you guys like the 10mm as I said before I was a big proponent of the 10mm back in the day. Owned a buch of the classic 10mm platforms and shot plenty of the older full powered loads and certinly do see where the 10mm shines but lets not make it more than what it is. It is a niche round, with a solid following that is a reloaders dream but that has been rejected by the majority of the shooting public either in or out of uniform.

And unless the guns (only Glock and EAA are decent price points) and ammo come down in price and that ammo becomes easier to find that dynamic will not change anytime soon.

 

[harrygunner]

Dr. Gary Roberts from http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439&page=2

A well designed, full power, 200 gr 10 mm generally offers superior terminal effects compared with .40 S&W, as the 10 mm permanent crush cavity is larger and the temporary cavity effects are getting large enough to begin to be significant; ...

The 10mm is one of few service rounds that produces a temporary wound cavity that could affect the outcome.

 

[Mainsail]

So then to summarize; the people who own 10mm really love the round and the guns that shoot them, and people who used to or don’t own a 10mm don’t.

Glad we got that worked out.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

The Glock 29 is NOT widely owned or carried. I predict that when people wake up and/or find a need for a more powerful pistol in a reasonably small package (compare it to the usual 2" snumbnose steel frame revolver), they will flock to the Glock 29. Other guns may come to be designed around the 10mm in a compact package, but for now the G29 is hard to beat. Of course, people who flinch a lot probably should stick with pistols that bark and jump less...................

 

[legion3]

The 10mm is one of few service rounds that produces a temporary wound cavity that could affect the outcome.

Great but this tidbit does not change the fact that the 10mm is not widely used for 2 legged SD purposes...why? There must be a reason if its the ultimate SD handgun round?

I predict that when people wake up and/or find a need for a more powerful pistol in a reasonably small package (compare it to the usual 2" snumbnose steel frame revolver), they will flock to the Glock 29.

Apart from assuming that people haven't yet woken up to the 10mm's power packed need, I predict they won't flock to the Glock 29 or any 10mm given the price and lack of choice in ammo. Also if the gun saw no huge uptick during the AWB and 10 round ban when is it going to?

These days pocket 380's are being produced by almost every maker, compact 10mm's ? not so much so.

Other guns may come to be designed around the 10mm in a compact package,

When? Who? After Vltor's mess who knows?

but for now the G29 is hard to beat.

Now I do agree with this, if you want a 10mm the Glock 29 is hard to beat, low cost, good capacity, light weight, plenty of aftermarke stuff and holsters and relatively concealable compared to other 10mm choices.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Why keep bringing up the price of ammo? Reload your brass. Shoot twice as much as budget 9mm.

 

[legion3]

Why keep bringing up the price of ammo? Reload your brass. Shoot twice as much as budget 9mm

Yes but most people won't ever reload, and the OP's question was what's wrong with the 10mm? Any cartridge that requires you to reload to make the most of without spending a fortune on factory ammo has some "appealing to the masses" problems.

As many before me pointed out the cost and availability of ammo. Good that you can roll your own but I would bet the vast majority of shooters don't reload and that makes ammo a overall problem.

The 10mm (both guns and rounds) will remain fringe as long as its economic costs are prohibative in this way.

 

[SSN Vet]

There must be a reason if its the ultimate SD handgun round?

the reason has been articulated by several posts in this thread...

1. To make a 10 mm sing, you have to load it hot... and big name factory ammo. mfgs don't. So you've got to re-load or plop down some serious cash for boutique ammo.

2. When loaded hot, the 10 mm can be a hand full, and when combined with the longer grip, it is often too big and too hot for girly men (as is .44 mag with a honkin' 8" barrel).

But if you roll your own, open carry on a thick duty belt that carries heavy steal frame pistols easilly, have medium to big hands and don't flinch at earth shattering kabooms, then Lord help the poor soul you point your 10 mm at.

10 mm is an great reloaders niche cartridge for people who can pack heavy pistols and shoot hot pistols. No more, no less.

 

[Sublime865]

I must comment, I own a Glock 20. It is my everyday carry, I shoot Federal Premium Personal Defense because it's what I can get. For pushing paper, I can go anywhere in 25 miles and have 1000+ rounds available to me. It is my only handgun at the moment, not by choice but because of finances. I feel comfortable in knowing I can (in a defense situation mind you) take down anything from a fisher cat to a deer, moose, or bear, all of which common in the areas I camp, hike, live, and work.

Then again I say screw trying to conceal it and just open carry, I love Vermont.

 

[Clark]

I own a Glock 20 and it is a very well designed handgun.
But the 10mm is one of the poorest designed cartridges in existence.
Large primer pocket and deep extractor groove.. FAIL!

That is why the 40sw is more powerful than the 10mm with hot handloads.

 

[SSN Vet]

fisher cat

good luck getting one of those in your sights

 

[IdahoLT1]

That is why the 40sw is more powerful than the 10mm with hot handloads.

??

The 40s&w will never be more powerful than the 10mm.

 

[Xfire68]

I say there is nothing "Wrong" with the 10mm! I want one and I am saving my penny's to buy one!

Yes ammo can be hard to find but, once I get enough brass I will be fine for a bit.

 

[LoweInc]

IMHO The 10mm is great, ammo isn't hard to come by. Buy your ammo online or in bulk at a show(gas,ga arms) man up and quit being a daffodil full power loads have a little recoil but remember that the round you just sent down range knocked the flying dog f*** out of something. Cheap bulk loads aren't as potent but that paper you are punching holes in has no idea. Shoot a few clips of the good stuff but save the rest for special occasions and social work. 1000 rounds of "target loads" and 500 zombie loads and your good. Replace after use or roll your own.

 

[[email protected]]

THERE IS ACTUALLY ONE POLICE DEPT IN MY AREA THAT CARRIES THE 10MM GLOCK. I HAVE SHOT ONE AND IT DIDNT SEEM THAT THE RECOIL WAS BAD. AS FOR COST OF AMMO IT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTERS BUDGET. LETS FACE IT IN TODAYS ECONOMY 22LR IS ALL SOME PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO SHOOT WHILE OTHERS CANNOT AFFORD TO ENJOY THE SHOOTING SPORTS. AS WITH ANY GUN THE 10MM HAS A PURPOSE, BUT REMEMBER THAT WHERE YOU PUT THE HOLE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOW BIG THE HOLE IS. IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE 10MM IT IS NOT FOR YOU. MYSELF I LIKE THE 40s&W AND HAVE TRUSTED MY LIFE, MY PARTNERS LIFE, AND THE CITIZENS LIFE ON IT WHILE ON DUTY. I DONT LIKE TO BASH OTHERS PEOPLE'S CHOICE IN WHAT CALIBER AS NO ONE CALIBER WILL SUITE EVERYONE'S NEEDS. i HAVE HEARD COUNTLESS TIMES THAT A 380 IS A POOR DEFENSIVE ROUND AND THAT IS TRUE IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSKILLED UNTRAINED SHOOTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE SITUATIONAL AWARNESS TO REALIZE THAT HIS TRUCK IS OUT OF GAS.

 

[DammitBoy]

How about the situational awareness to get off the frikken Caps Lock key?

 

[legion3]

THERE IS ACTUALLY ONE POLICE DEPT IN MY AREA THAT CARRIES THE 10MM GLOCK. I HAVE SHOT ONE AND IT DIDNT SEEM THAT THE RECOIL WAS BAD. AS FOR COST OF AMMO IT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTERS BUDGET. LETS FACE IT IN TODAYS ECONOMY 22LR IS ALL SOME PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO SHOOT WHILE OTHERS CANNOT AFFORD TO ENJOY THE SHOOTING SPORTS. AS WITH ANY GUN THE 10MM HAS A PURPOSE, BUT REMEMBER THAT WHERE YOU PUT THE HOLE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOW BIG THE HOLE IS. IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE 10MM IT IS NOT FOR YOU. MYSELF I LIKE THE 40s&W AND HAVE TRUSTED MY LIFE, MY PARTNERS LIFE, AND THE CITIZENS LIFE ON IT WHILE ON DUTY. I DONT LIKE TO BASH OTHERS PEOPLE'S CHOICE IN WHAT CALIBER AS NO ONE CALIBER WILL SUITE EVERYONE'S NEEDS. i HAVE HEARD COUNTLESS TIMES THAT A 380 IS A POOR DEFENSIVE ROUND AND THAT IS TRUE IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSKILLED UNTRAINED SHOOTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE SITUATIONAL AWARNESS TO REALIZE THAT HIS TRUCK IS OUT OF GAS.

IMHO The 10mm is great, ammo isn't hard to come by. Buy your ammo online or in bulk at a show(gas,ga arms) man up and quit being a daffodil full power loads have a little recoil but remember that the round you just sent down range knocked the flying dog f*** out of something. Cheap bulk loads aren't as potent but that paper you are punching holes in has no idea. Shoot a few clips of the good stuff but save the rest for special occasions and social work. 1000 rounds of "target loads" and 500 zombie loads and your good. Replace after use or roll your own.

In many languages, the fundamental unit of composition is the paragraph.

 

[[email protected]]

Caps lock key is on on purpose

 

[Dunedain]

It is $75 for mags for the Sphinx 3000? Ouch, and I thought H&K pistol mags were bad. Looks like a superbly built Swiss pistol, though, and comes in a variety of calibers, including 10mm and .45 acp with very high ammo capacity.