Whats wrong with pump rifles and lever shotguns?

[Skribs]

There are quite a few makes and models of lever action rifles and pump action shotguns, but very few of the inverse (especially today). It's very easy to find a levergun in .357 magnum or .30-30, or to find a pump action in .410 or 12-ga. But it's very rare to find a .357 magnum pump gun or a 12-guage levergun.

Is there something about shotgun shells and rifle rounds that lend them better to one over the other? Or is it just tradition of the lever-action cowboy shooting and the legendary status of the pump-action shotgun?

 

[Zygodactyl]

I used a pump Taurus Thunderbolt (copy of a Colt Lightening) in 45 Colt for Cowboy matches. They also made it in .357. Some of the guys used a Win 1887 lever action shotgun. They also make repros of them.

 

[dodo bird]

I have always wanted a pump .44 magnum that uses Desert Eagle magazines.

 

[BlackHand1917]

I had one of those Remington 30-06 pump-action rifles many years ago. I wish I still had it, but I sold it to my sisters husband I forget the mode!
number.

 

[Riomouse911]

Probably design and production cost.

Especially on the shotguns, they wouldn’t come close to being paid off by new gun sales. Outside of the 2 1/2” .410 bore (a 9410 Winchester for example), any 12 or 20 gauge would need a ground-up design with a substantial receiver to fit the shells as they move through the magazine and into the barrel. Never uber-popular to begin with, lever action shotguns like the Win 1887/1901 pretty much died out 100-odd years ago.

For rifles, outside of the model 14 and older designs, Remington made 870-ish models 7, 760 & 7600 centerfires for ages in several of the popular big game calibers. Guys hunting in thickly wooded areas like the Northeast like them because of fast follow ups, but the reputation for so-so accuracy at distances encountered in open range hunting wasn’t up to what many other hunters desired.

Remington stopped making the last of the 7600 series a few years ago, I doubt anyone else will pick up the torch and run with it.

Stay safe.

 

[Riomouse911]

Just checked GB, looks like Black Aces Tactical makes a modern-design lever 12 gauge. Never seen nor heard of that one, I have zero idea how it works in the field.

Stay safe.

 

[himfeld]

I had one of those Remington 30-06 pump-action rifles many years ago. I wish I still had it, but I sold it to my sisters husband I forget the mode!
number.

760 or 7600

 

[jmorris]

I imagine selling them is the problem, this list isn't complete though.

List of pump action rifles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Browning also made the BPR in centerfire, up to 2001.

BPR Pump Rifle Owner's Manual

www.browning.com

https://www.nramuseum.org/media/364154/Feb%2098.pdf

You can still get a lever action 12 ga, if you want one.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/guns/shotguns/lever-action-shotguns.html

Might get one while you can though. In order to stay in business, people have to make things others want to buy in enough volume, they can remain in business.

 

[Chuck R.]

I had one of those Remington 30-06 pump-action rifles many years ago. I wish I still had it, but I sold it to my sisters husband I forget the mode!
number.

They now go for a premium, when you can find one in reasonable shape.

https://www.gunbroker.com/guns-firearms/search?keywords=remington%20model%207600&sort=13

A couple years ago I bought a decent 7600 in .243Win off GB:

and turned it into this:

I had it rebored by JES into 358Win, barrel cut to 19", replaced the furniture with synthetic, CeraKote'd, and mounted a Leupold VX3HD 1.5-5X FireDot. Total cost was way more than practical, but I always wanted one. It's become my deer drive and pig carbine.

I wish someone would start making them again. They're reasonably accurate:

easy to carry (the thin receiver is awesome), and I find them faster than a lever gun as my firing hand stays on the gun.

 

[EMC45]

I would like a pump Remington 760 in 30-06, a 141 in .35 Remington and a Savage 170 in 30-30. Pump rifles are still valid options.

 

[nipprdog]

760 or 7600

or 7615P in 5.56

 

[argonn]

I have a pump TimberWolf, 357 mag, a pump Remington 7600 Police Carbine in 308, and an older pump Rossi in 22LR. Love all three. Several pump12’s.

 

[Galil5.56]

Better not tell this to the seemingly endless numbers of W. PA deer hunters - Many thought I was 'wrong' for liking a bolt action, not fawning over their 760s which were and are fine deer harvesting machines. Lever action hunting shotguns feel / seem off for me, esp since I have to have my firing hand move, screwing up my swing majorly where my butter-smooth 870 just keeps on going smoothly. My O/U preference goes even further since both hands stay in position, and those lovely triggers are just icing on the cake.

 

[BlackHand1917]

760 or 7600

You jogged my memory, it was a 7600.

 

[FullClip]

My first rifle was a Remington 760 in 30-06, it was $114.00 at Value House back in 1974...and yeah, I was an idjit and sold it.
A few years ago I found a mint 760 carbine in .308 ...I paid 600 bucks for it. Great little rifle.

Lever action shotgun has never appealed to me.

 

[Jim Watson]

Lever action shotguns run from reproductions of the 1887 Winchester, mostly for CAS, .410 versions of regular lever action rifles, and if you want modernity, the Kessler Levermatic from the early 1950s.

 

[AWS]

I bought my Ex a 760 in 270 Win, the rifle thought it was a varmint rifle, one of the most accurate out of the box big game rifles I've ever worked with. It could have used a better trigger but even that was pretty good.

I shot with the Chinese army when I was stationed in Taiwan. I fitted up a rem 742 BDL Deluxe in 308(free ammo) with a receiver sight and was competitive out to 600 meters. After I returned to the states I gave it to my dad and he killed deer with it for 20 yrs and I then gave it to my neighbors son that hayed my 40 when it got too heavy for dad.

I keep a 760 in 35 Rem stashed in northern WI incase I want to fly up to hunt with my family, no TSA hassles.

Like mention having to move your trigger hand on a shotgun is rather awkward a pump makes more sense. I really enjoy shooting hammer SxS's and having to cock hammers with your trigger hand is harder than just pushing off a safety on flushing birds. Newer reliable ammo and semi auto shotguns are putting a dent in pump shotgun sales also.

 

[Jim Watson]

Memory strikes: Back when ISU shot Running Deer at 100 meters with manually operated centerfires; the Europeans just worked hard on their Mausers for the Doubles runs.
The AMU had an Idea. The 760 was then available in .223. The AMU rebarrelled them to .222 with 28" barrels and Redfield International target sights. I don't know how they fared in competition.

 

[Skribs]

I'm not asking for examples. I know there are examples, they're just not very common.

I'm asking why the combination seems to be more popular for pump shotguns and lever rifles than the opposite. What is it about a lever action that makes it better suited for rifle cartridges, or a pump action that makes it better suited for shotgun shells?

 

[tubeshooter]

Can't claim to be an expert on any of it, but my take is that the traditional bolt rifle and pump shotgun turned out to be more durable, reliable, forgiving and maybe easier to mass manufacture than the said alternatives.

Lever rifles had a few other things going for them...


Not to say that those alternatives didn't work, or that they didn't have their fans. Just not in great enough numbers, evidently. Just a personal observation and honestly not too much more than a WAG.

 

[argonn]

I’ve not the foggiest, though I believe that a pump allows more opportunity for various shell lengths, mini, 2.75, and 3 inch.

 

[Riomouse911]

I think @Galil5.56 said it best; the lever action requires the shooting hand (finger at the trigger-gripping the stock) to release and move the lever away from the gun (down) then back up to cycle the action. Then the shooter has to re-grip to fire. On a passing or rising bird this messes up a lot of the wing shooters form, and will be slower to recover as the animal is flying up or away at high speed. Add in stout 12 gauge recoil if waterfowl are on the docket…ouch.

On a pump only the front hand moves, and it stays in line with the gun. The shooting hand has a steady grip on the stock through the entire cycle.

Just my theory to answer your query, so it’s worth exactly what you paid for it.

Stay safe.

 

[d31tc]

I'm not asking for examples. I know there are examples, they're just not very common.

I'm asking why the combination seems to be more popular for pump shotguns anMid lever rifles than the opposite. What is it about a lever action that makes it better suited for rifle cartridges, or a pump action that makes it better suited for shotgun shells?

Might be sacrilege in a gun forum to say, but I don't understand the googly eyes for lever actions, period. And this is from someone who shot his first deer with one and has two in his safe. I suppose it's faster with a follow up than a bolt action and is generally shorter for easier maneuvering in the woods, but there are better options for faster follow ups and easier maneuvering, for me, in my opinion.

I don't think the question is why lever=>rifle / pump => shotgun. I think the question is why not pump => rifle AND shotgun.

To me, pump actions make more sense over bolt and lever for faster follow ups. I have a Remington 760 Gamemaster chambered in 270 Win. It was my Dad's, and I love that gun.

ETA: I should add that I understand lever actions in terms of fun to shoot (as are most guns) and aesthetics, but for my practical purposes, for me, in my opinion, there are better options. Please don't run me out of town.

 

[jmr40]

There are a lot of reasons. Pump shotguns are very durable and will continue to function after abuse that most other shotguns couldn't take. In theory a pump shotgun is more reliable, but in practice semi-autos are. Most pumps fail because of operator error but if kept reasonably clean a semi-auto will be more reliable. That's not the same as rugged. Pumps are more rugged and handle abuse better. In a TEOTWAWKI situation I want a pump. But a semi-auto is in my closet near the bed.

Pump rifles much less so because of the much higher pressures they work at. Low powered rounds like 22 and some of the pistol cartridges do OK, but pump and lever action rifles are the least reliable, least rugged rifle actions, especially if used in harsh weather.

Fast follow up shots are overrated. Emptying the magazine fast and hitting the target fast are 2 different things. I've timed myself firing 3 shots as fast as possible, but just throwing lead downrange with no target. I got of 3 shots from a bolt action 308 in just under 2 seconds. A pump was about 1 1/2 second and a lever action 30-30 about 1 3/4 second. A semi-auto was just under 1 second.

But when I placed a paper plate at 50 yards with the requirement that all 3 shots MUST hit the target my times with the bolt action, pump, and lever action were almost exactly 4 seconds. The semi-auto was closer to 2 seconds.

Old school bolt rifles tended to be heavier than lever actions, but that is no longer true. I have several bolt guns that weigh less with scopes on them than my Marlin 30-30 weighs with no scope. Some a lot less, as in under 6 llbs scoped compared to 7 1/4 lbs for the Marlin or about 6 1/2 for a Winchester 94. And with shorter overall lengths.

When fired from any type of supported position pumps and levers are SLOWER to get off repeat shots than bolt rifles. If you want to use your pack as a rest, use shooting sticks, or even a tree branch for support a bolt gun is faster for repeat shots

That's part of the reason neither were ever seriously considered by the military. Neither is very rugged and are easily taken out of action in mud, snow and ice plus they can't be used prone. You can't lie on the ground and shoot out of a fox hole with them. You have to raise up and be exposed to return fire to cycle the action.

 

[Riomouse911]

There are a lot of reasons. Pump shotguns are very durable and will continue to function after abuse that most other shotguns couldn't take. In theory a pump shotgun is more reliable, but in practice semi-autos are. Most pumps fail because of operator error but if kept reasonably clean a semi-auto will be more reliable. That's not the same as rugged. Pumps are more rugged and handle abuse better. In a TEOTWAWKI situation I want a pump. But a semi-auto is in my closet near the bed.

Pump rifles much less so because of the much higher pressures they work at. Low powered rounds like 22 and some of the pistol cartridges do OK, but pump and lever action rifles are the least reliable, least rugged rifle actions, especially if used in harsh weather.

Fast follow up shots are overrated. Emptying the magazine fast and hitting the target fast are 2 different things. I've timed myself firing 3 shots as fast as possible, but just throwing lead downrange with no target. I got of 3 shots from a bolt action 308 in just under 2 seconds. A pump was about 1 1/2 second and a lever action 30-30 about 1 3/4 second. A semi-auto was just under 1 second.

But when I placed a paper plate at 50 yards with the requirement that all 3 shots MUST hit the target my times with the bolt action, pump, and lever action were almost exactly 4 seconds. The semi-auto was closer to 2 seconds.

Old school bolt rifles tended to be heavier than lever actions, but that is no longer true. I have several bolt guns that weigh less with scopes on them than my Marlin 30-30 weighs with no scope. Some a lot less, as in under 6 llbs scoped compared to 7 1/4 lbs for the Marlin or about 6 1/2 for a Winchester 94. And with shorter overall lengths.

When fired from any type of supported position pumps and levers are SLOWER to get off repeat shots than bolt rifles. If you want to use your pack as a rest, use shooting sticks, or even a tree branch for support a bolt gun is faster for repeat shots

That's part of the reason neither were ever seriously considered by the military. Neither is very rugged and are easily taken out of action in mud, snow and ice plus they can't be used prone. You can't lie on the ground and shoot out of a fox hole with them. You have to raise up and be exposed to return fire to cycle the action.

And when you buttsttoke an enemy soldier in hand to hand combat you can easily snap off the buttstock on a lever gun.

The Russians ordered a lot (most?) of the Winchester 1895’s that were made, but the uber-rugged Mosin-Nagant won the day over the levers.

Stay safe.