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When Called: Conscription

Discussion in 'Legal' started by roo_ster, Oct 12, 2006.

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  1. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    An interesting bit of writing on the subject.
    http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/single/9822/

     
  2. Boats

    Boats member

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    Yep, he pretty much nailed it. The draft isn't about flowery freedom rhetoric or slavery, it is a pragmatic answer to the problem of free riders and atomistic cowardice.

    It is good that the draft is now a last resort. As a former member of the all-volunteer Navy, I'd much prefer to fight and die amongst fellow volunteers than conscripts, but conscripts would be much appreciated over no one at all.
     
  3. Ian

    Ian Member

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    When the US gets invaded, I'll do my part to defend my home. But when the draft gets instituted to, say, fight a pointless and unwinnable war over an Asian peninsula, I'll be dodging like nobody's business. For all the nice rhetoric about how great the US government is, Kim appears to have forgotten what people were being drafted for last time. And I think he's pretty far off-base when he predicts what circumstances could lead to a draft in the present day.
     
  4. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    Slavery is ok if it is for a good cause... :rolleyes:
     
  5. jrfoxx

    jrfoxx Member

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    Some very good reading there.He makes some very good, well thought out statements, and backs them up well.But, my opinion may be biased, as I wholeheartedly agree with him on the subject, as he presents it.

    Let me add that I DON'T agree with a "draft" for such conflicts as Vietmnam, Irag, Afghanistan, etc.Only as needed to protect our HOME SOIL from anyone attacking it directly, so unless a foreign threat has CLEARLY displayed the means, ability and will bring the fight to our soil, and in a BIG way, then, and only then, I would supoport a draft to take the fight to them on their soil before they can bring it to us on ours (on a large scale). Which means, the Vietnam draft was wrong, as would have been one for Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and most likely North Korea, as I feel it is HIGHLY unlikey that at this point, any of those place (or others like them) have the ability to bring troops or use weapons against us and do any MAJOR damage on our Soil. But if any of them looked like they could REALISTICALLY come over here and cause some SERIOUS damage, then a draft would be warrented to take the fight to them on there land pre-emtively before they could bring it here, and then, only if we didn't have enough volunteers to do the job.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  6. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Zrex, you and I agree entirely.
     
  7. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    Yep, nothing wrong with having principles as long as you're willing to compromise them when the going gets rough.
     
  8. Boats

    Boats member

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    Why do you guys hate the Constitution and representative government? The draft is legal and constitutional for all wars declared or not, domestic or not, and is even legal and constitutional absent an identified military emergency.

    Is jury duty also slavery?
     
  9. ETXhiker

    ETXhiker Member

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    Quite an eloquent piece by Kim du Toit. Bravo. Possibly because it was a long read, most of the responses seem to have completely missed its main points.

    The most important being, that if we decide we are only are willing to risk life and limb in wars with which we agree, most of us will find a reason to disagree with any war.
     
  10. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    IMHO, yes.

    Maybe you'd like to explain what you see as the difference between slavery and coscription. Necessity? Duty?
     
  11. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    This guy need to wake up and smell the coffee. The day and age of conscription is out. The day of outsourcing our military needs is about to come.

    If we get into a tight spot, it would be cheaper, easier, and more politically correct for us just to outsource our military needs from India, Malaysia, or China.

    This would make everyone happy. The fiscal conservatives would be happy because it would cost less. Liberals and other cowards would be happy because they don't have to fight. Warmongers would be able to get more support for their war because flag-draped coffins won't be returning to the USA. Parents would be happy that Junior didnt have to go fight and get killed. Neo-Conservatives would be happy because it would be the ultimate proof that outsourcing works. The foreign governments would be happy because it would reduce their population burden, and bring in US dollars to their economy.
     
  12. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    The draft is slavery. If not enough people are willing to join the military voluntarily, fine, let the country be conquered. Why force a small number of people to fight and die so the majority of other non-volunteers can live in freedom?

    Hkmp5sd formerly EM1(SS), USN.

    P.S. I do like Heinlein's concept from Starship Troopers. Only honorably discharged or retired military are allowed to vote and/or to run for political office.
     
  13. Harry Paget Flashman

    Harry Paget Flashman Member

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    I think if you scratch below the surface you'll see a common thread amongst volunteers, draft dodgers and the people who went when their number was called...all of them were scared of being killed. Some paid their dues anyway.
     
  14. thebaldguy

    thebaldguy Member

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    I met a guy from South Africa in college during the 80's. His family sent him to the US to avoid service in the SADF (South African Defense Forces). They all had issues with the South African government and the way they ran South Africa. They felt that the government was racist and facist totaliarian. Civil rights, censorship and freedom for just about everyone was questionable in their opinion. I have to respect their decision.

    A draft is just that; forcing people into military service. If the armed hoardes were streaming across our borders, volunteers to defend the country would be coming in like nobody's business. If the conflict is questionable, volunteers are hard to come by.

    The people know what's right and not right when it comes to conflicts. That's why I'm against the draft. Forced military service can be construed as government slavery.

    Jury duty and the draft are different. When you're called upon for jury duty, you don't have to fight a war caused by failed foreign policy. You just have to decide if the accused is guilty or innocent.
     
  15. brerrabbit

    brerrabbit Member

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    Ditto with Hkmp5sd and the baldguy. Unless you can descibe the difference between involuntary conscription and slavery ,,,


    Brer formerly ETI/SS USN
     
  16. Boats

    Boats member

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    Like it or not, the social contract of this country provides that you have delegated the decisions to whether a war is just or not, to your political representatives.

    As for the semantical difference with jury duty, yes, in most cases jurors do not face the prospect of being killed in action, but you are never going to get those hours, days, weeks, or months of your life back, nor will you be compensated at FMV. If conscription is slavery and jury duty is not, then the only major difference has to be attributable to the fear of getting maimed or dying in military service, which was one of du Toit's comments.

    It is amazing that people choose to live in this country up until the moment it becomes personally inconvenient or potentially hazardous.
     
  17. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Y'all might want to think about the time that it takes to train a soldier. If you wait until the "armed hordes are streaming across the borders", it may very well be too late.

    This coming from a man who joined while the draft was going on in an unpopular war.

    A well trained fighting man isn't trained in a matter of days, weeks, or even months.

    Biker
     
  18. Boats

    Boats member

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    Slaves generally aren't paid for one. As another distinction, military draftees are treated no better or worse than are volunteers, so they suffer from no class distinctions in actual combat service unlike the "cannon fodder" stereotype.

    For a third, slavery is, and was, a private institution of one individual owning others. In a draft, the government doesn't literally own you, though on the ground that fact is of little practical importance, they are merely renting you. No draftee who has survived the experience of the sharp conflict was kept into perpetuity.
     
  19. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Regarding jury duty, who has been forced to serve on a jury? Simply state you think anyone arrested by the police must be guilty or they would not have been arrested and you are gone. Simply state you think all lawsuits are bogus and you are gone. Simply be a male with hair down to the center of your back and you are gone. :)

    Anyone can get out of jury duty, so if you stay, even though you don't really want to, it is because you chose to do so.
     
  20. jrfoxx

    jrfoxx Member

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    Agreed.
     
  21. thebaldguy

    thebaldguy Member

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    No where is it written in our Constitution that the people have to support and fill the ranks of the military in a war that's considered unjust and immoral. No where is it written that people must give up their lives for failed foreign policies.

    No where is it written that the people have to support a bad government who makes bad decisions.

    This is coming from a man who volunteered for military service.
     
  22. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    It all boils down to property rights, and the most important property of all is yourself. Who owns you? Do you own yourself, or does the gov't?
     
  23. brerrabbit

    brerrabbit Member

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    Hmm. Involuntary servitude. Forced subservience to others on pain of punishment. The word is sir now instead of master though.

    A slave cannot just decide to quit being a slave, neither can a conscripted soldier.

    A slave gets fed, a conscripted soldier gets his food and a wage. Can the soldier negotiate for a better wage? Withold his services until he gets the wage he wants?

    A slave is punished if he does wrong. So is a conscripted soldier.

    The ability of the government to forcibly enlist you creates the presumption of the government owning you.

    The military may be a much kinder master. But conscription is just another name for slavery IMHO.
     
  24. Alex45ACP

    Alex45ACP Member

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    There's no need for a draft. If a war is worth fighting, enough people will sign up voluntarily. If it's not worth fighting (ie. Iraq) they won't. It's that simple. Enslaving people and forcing them into battle at gunpoint cannot be morally justified, and I would not permit the government to do that to me. Especially when the people in charge are a bunch of draft dodgers themselves.
     
  25. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    As all branches of the military are meeting and/or exceeding their recruitment quotas, (ie. iraq) must be a war worth fighting.
     
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