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When the unknowing bid and the ignorant sell.....

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by dogtown tom, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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  2. Rockrivr1

    Rockrivr1 Member

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    It's my understanding that certain C&R type handguns that originally came with a holster that also was a stock were exempt from the NFA rule. Examples such as Lugers, Broomhandles, Inglis and Browning were on this exemption list. I dug it up when I bought an Inglis in this configuration. I'll see if I can find it again and post it.
     
    Rick in Iowa, zaitcev, Gordon and 2 others like this.
  3. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    They are, but the ATF is notoriously strict. If you look at: https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

    Under "Firearms removed from the provisions of the National Firearms Act and classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968."

    There are a few sections that can exempt a Hi Power:

    1. Belgian, Pre-war mfd. Hi Power pistols, cal. 9mm, having tangent sights graduated to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, having S/Ns of less than 47,000 without letter prefixes or suffixes and accompanied by original Belgian mfd. detachable wooden flat board type shoulder stocks.
    2. Browning, Hi power pistols, cal. 9mm, having tangent sights graduated to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, having S/Ns less than T200,000 etched vertically on the right side of slide, barrel, or frame and bearing crest of Emirates of Muscat & Oman, or mirror image of such crest, accompanied by original detachable wooden flat board shoulder stocks
    3. Canadian Inglis No. 1, Chinese Contract, Hi-Power pistols, cal. 9mm Parabellum, having a tangent rear sight adjustable from 50 to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, and having the letters CH in the S/N and accompanied by original Canadian mfd. detachable wooden holster/shoulder stock.

    #1 doesn't apply as this example isn't pre-war being manufactured in 1968.
    #3 doesn't apply as it's not a Canadian Inglis.

    #2 is the important one - the serial # on this gun is T215968. That does appear to match the s/n range of the exemption and the rest of the description, but the Emirates of Muscat & Oman crest (shown below) that is specifically mentioned in the exemption isn't there that I can see. It was likely either obliterated when taken into Israeli service or was never there.

    Regardless, if the exemption mentions the crest, and the gun has no crest, then the exemption likely doesn't apply.

    Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I read things.

    Muscat-Oman-Contract-Hi-Power-Pistols-Seen-in-Rock-Island-Premiere-Firearms-Auction-Catalog-7.png
     
  4. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    there's also the part of #2 reading "having S/Ns less than T200,000" that's rather important here. the exemption doesn't apply at all, since the only part of the exemption that it meets in anyway is HP slotted for a stock. And I'd almost lay money on that stock/holster not being Original per the ATF definitions.

    this is either an idiot seller or a trap.
     
  5. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    What leads you to believe the holster isn't original?
    It appears to be an original, factory FN board stock/holster appropriate for the time period.
    The ATF "must be original" applies to the firearms that ATF specifically exempts from the purview of the NFA: Prewar, Inglis No. 1 Chinese Contract and the Muscats.

    This firearm could be completely legal:
    If registered as an SBR.
    Or if the owner sought an exemption from the NFA as a curio or relic. If that was the case an ATF letter should accompany the pistol.

    Seller IS clueless.
     
    Gordon likes this.
  6. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Well isn't it your "duty" to inform a fellow FFL who is a Top GB seller with over 6,000 sales that he doesn't know what he is doing?
    Did you send them a message to inquire??
     
  7. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    Yeah I missed that and had read it backwards (was looking at serials OVER 200k not under), so that's a double strike against it being exempt.
     
  8. tark

    tark Member

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    Did no one at Gun Broker see this and say, " Wait a minute, this might be an NFA item?" I admit that I know nothing about Gun Broker, or how they operate, but it seems that somebody there is responsible for making sure nothing put up for sale is illegal. I see it is listed as having a "rare" T series prefix. I have an unfired T series gun myself, and while the "Unfired" part is rare, the T series guns aren't THAT rare. They made thousands of them.

    Maybe this is a trap.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  9. Detritus

    Detritus Member

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    Note that i said almost lay money. fakes/reproes including really good ones currently out number real/original stocks of all kinds by a very wide margin here in the US. I'm a cynic and even if there wasn't/isn't some possible "catch my butt in a crack" aspect to it i'm spring loaded to the "prove it's real" position.

    This is all true. but if any of that is the case it is not noted in the listing and therefore best assumed to not apply.

    Again i smell a trap, or at best multiple "felonies by ignorance".
     
  10. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Yup
     
  11. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Highly unlikely that anyone at GunBroker reviews any listing, for any reason.



    True, nothing "rare" about a T series. But this is the first Hi Power Ive seen auctioned with Israeli markings and a stock holster. And its in perfect condition.


    By who?
    Would be entrapment.
     
  12. Rockrivr1

    Rockrivr1 Member

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    If anything I'd go with ignorance. I just won a very nice S&W M29-5 from this selling on Gunbroker last month. Very nice guy and was quick with the whole process.
     
  13. HPJeep

    HPJeep Member

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    That's a nice HP.
     
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  14. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Its gorgeous.
     
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  15. Nature Boy
    • Contributing Member

    Nature Boy Contributing Member

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    yes it is and I want it
     
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  16. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    It soitanly is! :thumbup:
     
  17. tark

    tark Member

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    Then it is the condition of the gun and the Israeli markings that are rare. The prefix...not so much.

    And it sure is a beauty!
     
  18. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    I don’t see a reason for it to need an SBR stamp…. As long as you don’t actually affix that stock. Perfectly legal to sell it as currently photographed, however. (Unless seller removed incriminating photos?)
     
  19. Nature Boy
    • Contributing Member

    Nature Boy Contributing Member

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    Are we saying that if a stock touches that pistol and there’s photographic evidence it’s no longer legal to own or sell unless you have an SBR approval from the ATF?
     
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  20. P89DCSS

    P89DCSS Member

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    New information added to the listing;

    ATTENTION: PLEASE READ!!!

    We need to provide some important information about this Browning Hi-Power. When this example has the wood stock attached, it classifies it as a NFA Class 3 item. We will ship this Browning Hi-Power without the stock attached and not in SBR form. Attaching a stock to this will require the buyer to register this firearm as a NFA item. We apologize for any inconvience this may have caused. If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us!

    Information above was added on 10/22/2021 12:11:43 PM
     
    Gordon likes this.
  21. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    The original photos of that auction showed the stock attached.....making an SBR and requiring an NFA tax stamp. Simply removing the stock doesn't magically solve the problem. Since the stock/holster is still in close proximity and possession of the seller and eventually the buyer, it is constructive possession of an SBR to possess both.



    No, it's not. "Constructive possession".
     
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  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    If you want to possess the stock/holster and the pistol or attach to pistol....you need to file a Form 1, pay a $200 tax and wait for ATF approval. Pending that approval you darn well better not have the stock and pistol in your possession.
     
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  23. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Seller is dumber than a bag of hammers.

    Edited to add:
    Sold for $5276.
    Buyer will need to buy a tax stamp and sadly, engrave his name and city on that HP before he can attach the stock.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
    Gordon and Detritus like this.
  24. P89DCSS

    P89DCSS Member

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    Would either of this methods avoid tax stamp issues/ATF ? Just asking.

    - Can the purchaser have an FFL hold the pistol/stock while waiting for the tax stamp?
    - Can the purchaser accept the pistol through an ffl and have the stock shipped to his lawyer? Then have his lawyer hold the stock until the tax stamp arrives?
     
  25. I6turbo

    I6turbo Member

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    It depends upon what the definition of "need" or "can" is. The other side -- the ones who can burn down buildings, destroy public and private property, loot stores, shoot innocent civilians, or the ones who are in a position to stick their corporate and private syphon hoses into the federal treasury and therefore the country's future, all this with near impunity -- must be absolutely thrilled that there is still a huge bunch of us who willingly abide by laws, even minor, stupid laws, that only apply to us.
     
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