When will they learn ?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by gym, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. David E

    David E Member

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    Especially when the victims are unarmed and "trained" to panic and not fight back.

    You know this how? Please cite the study to which you refer.

    Don't dismiss this part so readily!

    How much worse could it have been? Again, please cite your source. Carrying a gun is never a guarantee, but it does provide a significant option that unarmed people don't have.

    An armed good guy is the best chance of stopping an armed crazy person.

    No, we have not....
     
  2. David E

    David E Member

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    I'll take that minuscule risk over being unarmed.

    So, even if a CCW holder had a clear shot, he (and apparently everyone else, including the soon-to-be-shot/killed folks) would've been better off if he "stayed low and retreated?"

    I disagree.
     
  3. Wanderling

    Wanderling Member

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    You are in an extremely crowded (sold out) movie theater with your family, all of a sudden there's a sound of explosion, smoke, people start running around panicking in the dark, then shots are being fired.

    All you see is smoke and running figures you can barely make out. Your heart is pumping, your adrenaline is high, your loved ones are right behind you. All of a sudden a figure runs out of dark smoke right at you, clutching a gun. Is it the killer ? Is it another CCW holder ? Is it a teenager with a large cell phone that you mistake for a gun ? What would you do in the first split second ? Are you sure you would have the self-control, presence of mind, and good judgement required to make the right decision ? Are you sure a dozen or so scared CCW holders scattered in the crowd will all stay level headed in a situation like this ?

    Don't think it's a "minuscule" chance. Not in this situation.

    I wonder what a trained LEO would say.
     
  4. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Member

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    Not saying I would choose not to protect me and mine, just playing 'armchair quarterback'... you know, like the media, the Brady Bunch, District Atty and the victim's lawyers would.
     
  5. JackTheRipper

    JackTheRipper Member

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    Calling it an assault rifle drives me nuts too. Thank God his drum magazine/ rifle jammed. Anyone read how many live rounds were still in it? He apparently isn't too smart, thank God, AK woulda never jammed.
     
  6. gym

    gym member

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    We were not there, you are trying to set the stage foran event that you weren't present. It's more like "GUN", 3 guys stand up and fire, if one innocent person is hit, it's far better than 71. You don't get ovrcome with any gas in the first 30 seconds. This guy was randomlly shooting into a crowd ,everyone was runningaway from him, he was probablly an open target most of the time. How do you run away when people are being killed arround you. I can't live with that mentality.
    You are your brothers keeper in a situation like that, grow a pair, if you take a bullet you may have saved countless lives doing it.
    This "i'm may get sued or yelled at attitude really has to go. Good thing you weren't in a combat platoon, when enemy soldiers were coming over the hill by the hundreds. You plant your feet take aim and do your best to end this kind of crap. this was no trained marksmen, but a swrewed up kid who lost his mind. why do we practice for events if we aren't planning on using what we learned.Hell why even carry, if your going to crawl out on your belly.
    You have a gun for a reason, the reason is to protect yourself nd others should the situation arise, if you don't plan on doing that, "and it seems many aren't", thern give it up and buy a nice plasma TV.
    you will get moe use out of it, and you will have something nice to give to the robber when he come through your door, we wouldn't want to shoot them either, the bullet may go accross the pond and kill an innocent person out boating
     
  7. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    There are more ways for citizens to deal with an assailant than with a CCW. Even in a Colorado movie theater, a gun-free zone where law-abiding CCWers disarm, there could have been a different outcome.

    Could the people in the gun-free theater see the shooter's muzzle flash? Presumably so, which means they could have charged him and ended the slaughter. Low visibility in the theater would effect the shooter as much as the intended victims, but smoke rarely covers a muzzle flash. The chargers would have been able to see the shooter, but he would not have been able to pick them out quickly enough to shoot them all. Some would have gotten through and then kept the shooter occupied at something other than shooting the people bunched up at the exits.

    Maybe one would have been been able to relieve the shooter of one of those guns and turn it back on the shooter. Better yet, if just one who managed to get through had been a trained CCWer and had been carrying, it would have been game over for the shooter. From wrestling distance, a cylinder full of 125gr hollow points will find an opening in body armor.

    You can prove the "rush the shooter" concept at home. Run a little low-light drill finger gun with five of your friends. Hold a pin light to simulate muzzle flash, and see how long you can remain focused on "shooting" when they rush you from 20-30 feet and all from different directions. Sure, you'll get a couple of presumed "hits," but you will stop shooting, in single-digit seconds, as your instinct to fend off your own attackers takes over.

    Though a few trained CCW holders with their pistols might have been an asset, the primary problem here was not that these people were unarmed by reason of being in a gun-free zone. The primary problem was that nobody had a self-sacrifice instinct strong enough to overcome his own self-preservation instinct. They did what most people would do. They either cowered under their seats or panicked and made for the exits en masse, making the shooter's goal all the more easy to achieve and leaving him unmolested to pursue it.
     
  8. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    Retreat to where? Most theaters I have been in have only one or two ways out and they are both at the front of the theater. If the shooter entered through the emergency exit, he has blocked escape routes and holds the tactical advantage. Your options at that point become fairly limited. You can hide and hope you are not discovered. You can attempt a shot from the position you are in. You can attempt to flank the shooter while looking for a shot opportunity. Or you could bull rush the shooter and attempt a take down.

    Many CCW holders I know are former military or LEO and have trained for these scenarios. I know that I have the skills, knowledge, training and mindset to take action in a situation such as the one in Aurora. Rather or not I could have stopped it is a matter of luck of the draw and God's will colliding with the other factors.

    It is ridiculous to assume that introducing a CCW firearm could have made the incident worse. Anything, and I mean anything would have been better than cowering and watching a mad man kill innocent bystanders. Mindsets like the one above are best reserved for the anti-gun crowd.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  9. JSmith

    JSmith Member

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    Along with the deep sympathy and sadness I feel for the victims and their families, I'd also like to express my feeling that this clown is a disgusting, utter, total waste of p-poor protoplasm. People like him make people like us look bad.
     
  10. gym

    gym member

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    I can't believe that there weren't a couple of Vets in there of off duty LEo's this kid really knew who he was dealing with if nothing else. And why they didn't shoot him during the escape is beyond me.
    Please don't tell me because he gave up, he could have had a grenade in each hand. This now tuurns into a 6 month media circus, and will probablly bankrupt the town.And he gets to smile and be a cult hero to other wack jobs.
    I hope they at least throw him in I max and bury him so he gets no press. This aside of what it does as far as perception of ccw laws and the honest gun owners in this country.
     
  11. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    It always amazes me how many Rambos and Dirty Harry's we have on these forums. Same amazement that comes from those postings of unbelievable accuracies out to ranges farther than most of us can see. Again, playing armchair quarterback is easy. Especially after the fact. Unless these same Rambos are psychic and can gaze into the future, knowing the facts of this scenario until after it's over is and was impossible. Even if there is one or two here that are qualified and trained for these situations......they were not there. That's what I meant when I said our priorities should be to make sure this does not happen again.

    If I were in that situation with family and loved ones, and carrying, the last thing I would do, is leave them unprotected and try to "flank" the attacker. Especially when I do not know for sure he is alone. I also would not to draw fire at me(read this as "them") without knowing for sure the attacker was alone. My first response would have been to get them down and shield them with my body while having my gun ready. If a gunman appeared and threatened then I would shoot. In a dark, crowded room filled with smoke, hiding as opposed to getting up and exposing oneself is good tactics. Most all of the witnesses there claimed after the initial shots were fired, the gunman focused on those that got up and ran. This was probably due to the fact they exposed themselves and made themselves more visible in the smoke and darkness.

    It is also ridiculous to make any claim that the average CCW could have stopped the perp in his tracts and made the situation better. The real answer is either could have done either and we will never know. Altho I too prefer to be armed as opposed to leaving myself and my loved ones unprotected, I am also a realist and know the limitations of myself and the consequences of bad judgement. My first response would have been for my family and me, and the rest of the world next. I believe that is what CCW is all about. If a situation arises where I can save others, so be it. I hope I'm up for it. But I would not sacrifice my loved ones for someone else.....sorry.
     
  12. Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Member

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    Just as it is rediculous to assume that more gun laws would have prevented this from happening.............. I think you're getting my original point.
     
  13. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    Buck460XVR, you do not know me or my limitations. I can reasonably assume from my past actions in similar situations what my future actions would be. You can huddle with your family of you so choose, but I know from experience that often times offense is the best defense. Being proactive can mean the difference between life and death. The worst action is often no action. If you can live with innocent people (possibly your family members) dying because you failed to act, then so be it. I can not live with that.

    I know what I am made of. I know what my convictions are. I know how I react under threat of death and bodily injury. I know how I react to CS gas. I know how I react in dark, hazy environments. I know how I react when the stress levels are ratcheted up and the pressure is on.

    To project your abilities and limitations onto me are unfair. To assume that I have a Rambo or Dirty Harry attitude is incorrect. Simply put, I know who I am and what I am capable of. You do not.
     
  14. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    "I never understand why people choose to find reasons not to fight back against a mad man."

    Agreed. The worst result is caused by not even trying. Sometimes, trying and dying is preferable to taking no action. "Safety" is not something to worship.

    1) Soft body armor can be defeated by firing six shots in the same area. This is why training is important.
    2) Body armor does not cover 100% of the body. His head, arms, legs, parts of the side of his chest (near the armpits), and groin are available. Again, training will help you make such shots.
    3) If the range is short, then you may have a shot. You can engineer the shot by moving appropriately.
    4) Visibility can be solved with a good light in the hand or on the gun. Proper light techniques also require training.

    Training is important for surviving, and possibly winning, the scenario.
     
  15. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    You are correct, I do not know you or your limitations. I do know tho, that you were not there. I do know that you only know the conditions of the scenario because it is over. I also know that the majority of CCWs do not have the abilities or expertise that you claim to have and thus the outcome could be different.




    I did not say I would not act. You do not need to put words in my mouth. I said I would act with my family and loved ones as my first priority. That would be my form of being proactive. Their safety comes first to me. You said huddle, I said shield. I believe the term is Self Defense......not Self Offense. I take from your response then, that you are saying you would leave you family and loved ones alone and unprotected, just to go on the offensive? Could you live with the fact that after you left to go after one gunman, that his accomplice came and murdered those you left behind, and unprotected? Oh, that's right, we now know there was only one gunman. Again, easy to play arm chair quarterback after the game is over. Again, very easy to make claims on an internet forum as how great we would be in a theoretical scenario. Unfortunately for those victims in Colorado, you were not there to save the day. Instead, they need our prayers and thoughts.
     
  16. gym

    gym member

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    In the real world, there are plenty of us who have been in these situations, and been face to face with death. The internet has nothing to do with what many here would do. You choose to lay there and let fate dictate the course of events. Others here are not the same. I know what I would do because I have done it, you doubt yourself because you have not. It's that simple.
     
  17. basicblur

    basicblur Member

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    Just a couple of thoughts on this one:
    Don't really care - "trained" LEOs are like a box of chocolates.
    Some are still operating under the (promoted) illusion that simply because you are LE, you are an 'expert' at all things tactical / gun related. There are many in LE these days that place as much importance on their gun as thier ink pen.
    Hang around a shooting range, or talk to a shooting enthusiast that's been in a ride along program to see what they think 'bout one automatically being tagged a weapons expert (or merely a good shot) simply because they wear a badge.

    Very true, but let's not contribute to what appears to be erroneous reporting 'bout what he was wearing. Receipts / records seem to indicate this is what he ordered and was wearing.
    Just as to the media any gun that's black is an 'assault weapon', it now appears any clothing that's black is 'body armor'.

    AFA those that proffer the theory that an armed CCering would / could have made this situation worse...well, it reminds me of Janet Reno's excuse to justify the mess made at Waco; We had reports of child abuse in the compound...
     
  18. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    If a person has not been under actual fire before, they really cannot be sure how they will react. Lots of tough guys on the internet. We would probably all like to believe we we stand tough, and take the bad guy out as easily as a static target, but who knows how we will actually react, but the target is moving, and possibly shooting at you.

    For those who have been there and done that in defense of our country, I salute you. For everyone else, we are untested, and cannot know for sure what we would do.
     
  19. David E

    David E Member

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    I watch things, especially things out of the ordinary. Someone going out the emergency exit just as the movie starts is out of the ordinary. Him coming back in dressed in all kinds of crap is also.

    It's not completely dark, the movie is rolling. If I had a shot, I'd take it. If not, I wouldn't. But to say without qualification as you did that the best course of action is to "get low and retreat" is asinine. It MIGHT be the best, but it could also get you killed.

    I'd still take that chance over the alternative.

    Why would you care? Many would say that, since they are "trained," no one else needs/should carry a gun.
     
  20. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    Buck460XVR, I could live with the fact that I did everything I could to stop the act from taking place. I've had to make those kinds of choices before. Sometimes there is not a right or wrong action. Sometimes it is just a matter of taking some form of action.

    I don't see my decision to concealed carry as just a form of SELF-defense. It is a matter of defense as a whole. I choose to live by a code. It's a code that puts others before self. I fully realize that not everyone lives by the same code. I never projected my actions onto you. I never said that you should act in any way that goes against your beliefs. I just don't appreciate being painted in a negative light because of my beliefs.

    People are entitled to act in accordance to their own beliefs in a situation like this. I would only hope that if an incident like this took place and my wife and daughter were present without me, that someone would act as I would act to protect and defend them. Someone said it earlier and I will repeat it. We are our brother's keeper.

    The sheep will never protect the sheep dogs from the wolves. When the sheep dogs blend in with the flock, the wolves will always have their way.
     
  21. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    Listen to the people that survived . Several were shot protecting family or friends! No one who was not there can say for sure what they would have done! We think we know! But when the SHTF, many plans go right out the window! Just like you should if being shot at! I have a friend that was at the Fort Hood shooting, he was about 30 feet from the shooter! He had no weapon so he dropped to the ground &assumed the fetal position &was not shot! He is still a victim as the guilt is consuming him! He could not have done anything to stop the shooter. Several service members around him were shot &he knew that he couldnot get to the shooter before he was shot. The pain of helplessness has made him doubt himself! I hope that one day all of the people understand that it was not there fault, but the fault of someone that lives in a very dark place &needs to get some help! Until we know why he did this we can only guess &speculate.
     
  22. basicblur

    basicblur Member

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    I'm confused - are you talking 'bout the shooter, or those that work to keep the public disarmed and helpless?

    I think Dr. Suzanna Hupp expressed very well whose fault she thought it was (Luby's shooting).
     
  23. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    I was referring to the victims ! Which is all of us! Not trying to start argument! JMTs.
     
  24. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    We are not all victims. Some of us refuse to be.
     
  25. Tim the student

    Tim the student Member

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    Yes, very valid point. Yet, IMHO, it would also be wise to remember that there are plenty of members here who have been in firefights and have earned V devices etc.
     
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