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Which 9mm is built specifically for 9mm NATO/European standard pressures?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by bg226, May 6, 2006.

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  1. bg226

    bg226 Member

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    The 9mm NATO/European pressures are supposedly much hotter and I assume they are +P in our books (SAAMI). The general consensus is that it's not good to give your guns a total diet of +P ammunition. What about those in Europe who use these hotter pressures as their standard?

    Which firearms are specifically designed for 9mm NATO/European standard pressures?

    Please clarify this. :)
     
  2. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Any relatively recent 9mm autopistol by a reputable manufacturer will do fine with 9mm Nato or 9mm from European countries. I have heard that some 9mm is designated for submachine gun use and is not suitable for pistols, but I have never actually seen any of this ammo. I would avoid it, but anything else should be OK.

    Beretta, Glock Sig, H&K, S&W and Ruger will all do fine, IMO.
     
  3. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    From what I've read NATO 115gr 9mm is standard pressure, and is generally the pistol load; while a good bit of the 124gr loads are +P+ designed for subguns. This is simply what I've gleaned from gun forums and gun shops so don't take it as definitive. I have seen Hirtenberger and IMI sub gun ammo advertised and it had the high pressure carbine use only warning. Interestingly I've also been told by a few Luger pistol owners that 9mm NATO pistol/ 9mm Parabellum is loaded cooler than 9mm Luger spec, and that their Lugers cycle better with 9mm Parabellum +P. Basically just go with what Lone_Gunman said.
     
  4. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    My CZ was specifically tweaked and is approved for NATO standard pressures. Most of these NATO pistols, the ones that are completely ok with it have NATO markings. Here are the markings on my CZ-P01.


    [​IMG]

    The SP-01 has the same actually.


    edit:I've been told that NATO loads are much hotter than standard, so...
     
  5. jungle

    jungle Member

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    It is largely a myth that NATO spec 9mm is hot loaded. Do a search on chrono results and you will see that most of it falls well within the range of standard pressure loadings in terms of velocity. The NATO spec method of measuring pressure does differ slightly in that they refer to peak pressure and we refer to average pressure in the US.
    In the past there have been some lots of very hot subgun ammo made and they aren't recommended for pistols.
    Any modern 9mm should handle any recent NATO standard loading without a problem.
    Commercial european ammo imported into the US is made to comply with US standards and the european standards. It is almost the same standard, but stated differently.

    Kace, The marking on your CZ is a NATO stock number, meaning that type of pistol has been approved for NATO purchase. It differs not one whit from a standard CZ without the marking in it's pressure handling ability.
     
  6. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I'm aware Jungle, but the P01 and the 75 differ in the material of its construction. The P01 is essentially a "jazzed" up compact CZ-75, but there are significant differences. The SP-01 is the same in that respect to the CZ-75, similar but not the same.

    I will buy that NATO loads arent hot however, as it doesnt make sense to beat a 9mm apart for the sake of a very small edge in velocity(after all is said and done anyway). I tend to be paranoid about pressure ratings as they relate to my firearms in general however.
     
  7. jungle

    jungle Member

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    Just to clarify, here are some recent chronograph results found in a search:

    WCC M882 Ball 1186 fps average 20 rounds from a G17

    Federal M882 Ball 1136 fps from a G17

    WW Ranger T 127grn +P+ 1331 fps from a G17


    A few notes: M882 Ball is 124 grn ammo, some has been made with 115 grn bullets. Earlier pressure specification for M882 was somewhat higher than current. Testing methodology not stated for chrono results. Glocks do tend to run faster for a given barrel length.
    SAAMI does not recommend 9mm NATO in pistols marked 9x19, 9mm P, but I suspect this is due to a conservative approach with some past Subgun loads rather than a reflection of current production. In any case any current 9mm pistol employed by the military is perfectly safe with current 9mm NATO. This would include Berreta, Glock, H&K, SIG, CZ, Steyr, FN, and a host of others.
     
  8. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    The H&K USP was originally designed for the .40 S&W and the 9mm pistols are more than capable of handling any 9mm load on the market.
    The CZ pistols are known for being built hell for stout and should handle any load without issue.
    The Russian MP635 Grach was specifically built for a high pressure Russian 9mm Luger load and will be more than capable of handling any American or European 9mm loading.
    The Beretta 92 series was designed to handle high pressure loads though it has been recognized that the locking block must be replaced on a regular schedule in order to allow the pistol to do this without a major breakdown.
     
  9. ShelbyV8

    ShelbyV8 Member

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    The 9mm NATO round has been around a lot longer than most civilian 9mm. It is standard pressure. The +P designation came out to give people conifidence in the 9mm. There is some 9mm submachine gun ammo that is too hot for most pistols.
     
  10. Caseless

    Caseless Member

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    Like others have said, NATO-spec ammo isn't really +P+ or +P. It's a different way of pressure measurement.
    I do know which pistol I trust to a steady diet of +P loads though.
    Looking through my handgun manuals, only the HK USP Operators Manual mentions this, "with a patented HK recoil reduction system, the USP is built to take the punishment of the most powerful +P loads." I now totally believe HK's claim after using different makes in competitions.
    From first hand experience, I've had a CZ-75 breaking its slide stop and firing pin during the middle of an IDPA game. A Beretta 92 broke its locking block. etc. Somehow all the Internet handgun gospels are true in my case. But the HK USP hasn't had any breakage yet. (Each gun has gone thru 5000+ factory rounds)
     
  11. RON in PA

    RON in PA Member

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    Glock 17s and 19s are NATO standard pistols.
     
  12. gettyleigh

    gettyleigh Member

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    nato 9mm

    ruger states in their mauals that the pc9 and the p85/89 series 9mm autos are rated for nato, +p, and +p+
     
  13. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Nato became the term when Parabellium was no longer used IMHO.
    A special term ment for ammo that was used for countries in a war effort.

    http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_9mm.php

    All "9mm luger" (9x19) were designed around the "parabellium" round I would have to think:uhoh:
     
  14. otomik

    otomik Member

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    Hirtenberger of Austria. produced a very powerful 9mm load called L7A1. Austria isn't NATO. I hear Israel also did some similar loads for Uzis, also non-NATO.

    NATO load is pretty good, powerful but suitable for either a pistol or subgun. isn't that better than stocking separate supplies for subguns and pistols?
     
  15. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    Most European 9mm X 19 autos can handle NATO and so called machine gun 9mm. Probably not that much difference. Think about it...You are in the field and your enemy is bearing down on you and all you have is a defunct machine gun and your 9mm handgun...What?!!? Your going to pass up shooting that machine gun ammunition. Well then I guess you are going to die...:D

    My firestar M43 has digested "machine gun" 9mm X 19 amunition...Of course it's all steel and not plastic...:evil:

    No firearm likes a steady diet of +P or +P+...It does tend to wear on the firearm...
     
  16. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    @#$%^&*!!! Double post and still no delete...:D
     
  17. otomik

    otomik Member

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    :confused: first of all you set up a fairly unlikely scenario. then you suggest a false dichotomy. I'm sure I'd fire the ammo but I would prefer ammo of pressures that enable me to shoot my handgun more than once.

    "probably" that's reassuring, just pulling a large assumption out of your ass? :scrutiny:
     
  18. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

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    Add the West German SIG-SAUER's P225, P226, and P228 too
    the approved list for all types of 9m/m cartridges~! :scrutiny: :cool: ;)
     
  19. Halo

    Halo Member

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    Perhaps more telling would be this question: why did American-made 9mm ammo develop this reputation for being milder than European ammo, in the first place? The explanation I've heard claims it was due to concerns about people firing full power ammo in 9mm pistols of questionable quality. Is there any truth to that explanation, and if so what are the pistols in question?
     
  20. rklessdriver

    rklessdriver Member

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    I know where the reputation came from.

    I have read on numerouse occasions in quite a few gun rags dating back to the early 1980's that back in the late 1940's and 50's US made 9mm was loaded down to prevent Vets from blowing up their war trophys, which very well could have been made under less than perfect manafacturing quality controls. This light ammo in turn would not operate most Lugers 100%.

    I have a few Lugers and can attest that using 115gr WWB in them will get a few FTF/FTE in all of them, but it's not really all that bad. It's not like I shoot IPSC or count on them for self defense or anything. I have never crono'd WWB v/s any European 9mm to see the difference but when I shoot the Fiocchi 124gr (advertised as 124gr@1200FPS) ammo those Lugers run 100% and the recoil is quite sharper.

    Maybe there is some truth to it, maybe not. Maybe those Lugers of mine are espc hinky on their ammo diet. :)
    Will
     
  21. Halo

    Halo Member

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    That's what I heard as well, the concern over war trophies of rushed/shoddy manufacture not being able to handle full power ammo.

    What's the nominal pressure for 9mm according to SAAMI, and for CIP? It seems that what CIP considers normal pressure 9mm, SAAMI considers to be "high pressure". I'm just wagering a guess here, but it seems very likely to me that any pistol with an European proof mark would happily digest the so-called high pressure 9mm with no problems at all.
     
  22. Ol` Joe

    Ol` Joe Member

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    From the VV #3 manual for the 9mm Luger;
    CIP max pressure piezo = 34075 psi.

    From the Speer #13;
    SAAMI/ANSI max pressure =35000 psi

    Cip measure the pressure at a different point in the chamber then SAAMI but I can`t find referance to the exact points at this time. I seem to remember it though as being a point about midway on the case for SAAMI and just in front of the case mouth for CIP but I may be wrong.
     
  23. otomik

    otomik Member

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    [conjecture]Pistols chambered in 9mm Glisenti. Same exterior dimensions as Parabellum but with lower pressures. Get a bunch of war vets bringing them home along with the surplus market. Lets be honest how many gun shops have you seen Romanian PSL's being advertised as Romanian Dragunovs? So a shopowner says this Glisenti pistol is an Italian Luger. The lines are about the same. It's about the same problem as 9mm Luger and 9mm Makarov except bedevilingly more subtle.[/conjecture]
     
  24. R&J

    R&J Member

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    C'mon...

    Glock 17.

    Arguably the best 9 mm combat pistol in the world!

    Mine is approaching 11,000 rounds, without one hiccup!

    By the bye, +p is okay too!

    Glock 19.

    All that; but in a handier size!

    Everybody needs a G19! :D

    --Ray
     
  25. loop

    loop Member

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    Geez,

    Once again - all of them. The Plus-P designation came about to prevent people who owned 100-year-old guns from putting hot ammo in them.

    If was made in the past 50 years it will handle +P without a problem. If it was made in 1908 I'd be careful what I fed it.

    No matter how many +s you put behind it, it is still a 9.

    IOW, an inferior caliber.
     
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