Which AR should I get based on the following

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Skribs, Dec 27, 2011.

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  1. proven

    proven Member

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    i completely understand that red dot sights are faster to get on target. but you're talking ten feet. that's not even all the way across the room in most homes. at that range in a HD situation, you're likely to be in one of two shooting scenarios. you're either waiting behind the door with gun shouldered for when the bad guy breaks in....or you're grabbing it in a fury and making a snap shot. this basically means that you are point shooting. if you can't hit a man-sized target COM from ten feet reliably (even from the hip this would be easy) without a red dot, you have much bigger problems than what kind of ar to buy. in a larger (think 4k sq ft or more) home, for training courses....fine. but really, a red dot isn't even close to necessary to make hits at ten feet.

    as far as rifle vs. pistol.....can you keep your ar shouldered (looking through the red dot) and trained on the BG with the light on while you use the cell?
     
  2. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    You're right, if I'm already waiting, a red dot is superfluous (but not a disadvantage). If I'm not already sighted in, the red dot offers an advantage. It means that instead of point shooting, I can quickly bring the gun up and get a shot off without lining up perfectly. It has an advantage there.

    I'd already have my pistol on me, due to using it to get to my long gun. The light can stay on, so I don't need to worry about that once I turn it on. You're also forgetting about all of the hands-free technology that is on the market, meaning I don't need to spend the entire time the BG is inside with my hand on my phone.
     
  3. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood Member

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    Your choice of weapon was decided by whether or not you could hold a BG in your sights while making a phone call?
     
  4. proven

    proven Member

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    no, it wasn't.

    google the 21 foot rule. if the guy is ten feet from you, you likely won't have a chance to shoulder a long arm.
     
  5. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    That depends on how the guy reacts. Walking into a bright light will most likely cause him to stop and blink.

    I also probably wouldn't be able to raise a pistol unless I already had it pointed at the door.
     
  6. proven

    proven Member

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    if someone is intent on doing you harm and within 10 ft of you, good luck with the belief that they'll stop and blink because you shine a light at them.

    also, i was referring to you point shooting within 10 feet because you won;'t have time to acquire the sights, regardless of platform.

    you've gotten many good suggestions regarding your requirements. you might want to do a little more reading on actual HD situations though.
     
  7. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Emeritus

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    Skribs, the S&W M&P 15 Sport seems good to go. Talked a buddy into buying one, so I'm betting my buddies health and welfare on it. :)

    Here's the best price for an Aimpoint I've found. It's set up for a flat top AR.
    At that price, I'd grab it even if you don't have the rifle in hand yet.

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/9081.php

    FWIW, my AR (16 inch mid length) has the RDS and a Surefire G2 mounted in a Viking Tactics mount. Three yards or three hundred yards, it works.

    Slip2000 EWL is my lube of choice, Pmags for magazines, 55 grain Ballistic Tips for house use.
     
  8. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Have you taken a surefire to the face when its otherwise almost pitch black?

    I've actually done a lot of reading on this forum regarding actual HD situations. Or would you say all of the people on the S&T forums are wrong?
     
  9. proven

    proven Member

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    yes, actually i have. i don't think you realize how short of a distance ten feet is. close your eyes and keep barreling towards your target. someone with a knife is going to put you in a world of hurt.

    haha, no, but nice try. i would say you misinterpret things or don't think things through from all angles, but that's besides the point.

    we're off topic. good luck with your purchase.
     
  10. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    accuracy

    Sorry....not really but one has to make the attempt.....I am still hung up on the OPs statement about no real need for better than 100 MOA accuracy.
    I realize that just about any AR will provide better accuracy than that but still....doesn't anyone else see a contradiction between no need for better than 100 MOA and the discussion of Red Dot/EoTech sights?
    Also....given that the stated purpose of the AR in question is both HD and Plinking......chances are more than likely that the only use that this gun will ever see is the Plinking part. If, in fact, the gun is to be used for plinking as it's primary use, then wouldn't a demand for better accuracy make more sense...unless the plinking will be at large objects very close by? At that rate, a slingshot is way more cost effective.
    Pete
     
  11. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood Member

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    I took the OP's comment as hyperbole used to emphasize the point that long-range accurace isn't his primary concern. You're reading way too much into it.
     
  12. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    Yeah, I suppose.
    I do take comments made in these threads as if people mean what they say. Alas.
    Pete
     
  13. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I did mean that the best accuracy I need at 10 feet to hit a 10" target is 100 MOA, and that I understand that since any AR should easily be 2 MOA or less, that accuracy wasn't my biggest concern. If I hit two inches left of COM...I'm still hitting something important.

    The red dot is more for target aquisition than for accuracy. Which is why I'm still debating between EoTech (65 MOA reticle would be easy to see) and Aimpoint (no battery issues).
     
  14. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    The HD scenario is mostly fantasy on the internet. In real life, pistols are used, and less than three shots fired.

    In real life, they are pounding down the door, or you come home to find it open and hear voices inside.

    In real life, you call 911 FIRST - after all, pizza gets there faster - and then you warn the assailant to stop or you will shoot them dead.

    In real life, the citizen has no obligation to shout "stop," or waste ammo firing a warning shot, or the other stuff that fills S&T forums as postulated by LEO's who are obligated to respond in a legal manner and escalate force to meet force.

    The citizen can simply shoot the dumb perp upon his immediate discovery on your premises. You will like have no time to get, or have in your possession, a long arm. You will have a pistol either CCW or close by, simply because they are much handier. People wear them all day. People with long arms rack them inside buildings, and go without.

    I'm not tellling anyone they can't use a long arm, but having served 22 years, MP and Infantry, worked in armed security, and simply reading accounts of home invasions, I LOL at anyone who thinks they are going to handgun their way to the long arm. In most accounts, they shoot the intruder once discovered on the property.

    Use a light to ID them, it's completely valid to carry it separate off handed to control where you want them to respond as your center of mass.

    The major issue ignored in these fantasy discussions is Why break down your door? Statistics show a number of possibilities, the most likely are: you ripped off your drug lord, stole his girlfriend, or smacked down the gang on the street, and they want revenge. After that, you've been leaving your otherwise suburban home a vacant target with the Xbox, 54" plasma, and new laptop boxes sitting at the curb.

    In other words, clueless. Figure out the real problem - moving to a better neighborhood often helps, so does CCW. There's a reason carry licensing has multiplied a decade before the AR15 became a fashionable topic in the Home Defense fantasy theater.

    I would strongly encourage anyone who is concerned about home security to actually study it, and spend their money on combatives and armed handgun response. Those are the primary tools you need when physical and behavioral remedies have apparently failed, and some less than normal human still decides to rob you.

    Whether you decide to practice Point and Shoot, or use the sights, it is more likely you'll do it with a handgun and be done with it, rather than retreat to a safe room. You as a citizen are NOT obligated to surrender any turf to an intruder. Castle doctrine or not, it's still the primary rule, Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six.
     
  15. BCMjUnKiE

    BCMjUnKiE Member

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    BCM ......www.bravocompanyusa.com get the lower from Grant at G&R Tactical.
     
  16. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Well, Tirod, if I already have a handgun, would you say an AR in addition is a bad idea?

    The idea isn't to surrender turf, it's to have a more defensible position. I've always read that clearing a building is very dangerous, while waiting for the assailant from cover is a much safer option.

    Lucky for me I live in a condo complex with over 100 families, so who knows which unit bought the plasma that has a box in the dumpster?

    I don't think the idea is actually to fight through hordes of zombies with your handgun to "level up" when you get to your long gun, but rather "I have a handgun at my desk, that I can grab and use should I meet the intruder on the way to my long gun." For me, my handgun is by my bedside, my long gun is in the closet. If the intruder is right there, I'll grab my handgun and use that. If I hear them in the adjacent room, I'd rather grab my long gun and then decide whether to confront them or wait in a defensible position.
     
  17. kb58

    kb58 Member

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    In addition to the very valid points raised by Tirod, get a dog! Everyone has Internet Delusions of Graduer about how they'll handle the home invasion they're sure is going to happen next week. Things don't have to escalate straight to shooting unless you let it. A dog, not leaving "bust into my house" stuff on the curb, decent locks, and not being a high-value target in general go a long way toward defusing the situation before it begins. There seems to be a strong supply of stories on the Interweb of "okay, if I hear a noise, what best to blow the BG's head off?" There's a lot of other stuff that can be - and should be - prepared before it ever comes to that.
     
  18. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood Member

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    I don't doubt that statistically this is true. However, I still see stories almost every day of someone breaking into a house while someone is home. Sometimes it scares the intruder off, sometimes it doesn't. So, your statistics aside, the possibility of someone (or multiple someones) breaking into your house while you are home is very real.
     
  19. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    If the very slight accuracy advantage you get from a free-float rail isn't a concern, you can add a Magpul MOE grip to any standard rifle for like $30.

    During the day, yes, I have my pistol on me at all times. But at night, it is just as easy for me to grab my shotgun, and I will start with that.
     
  20. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I love how when someone asks "I'm building a bench and have these screws, what screwdriver should I get?" everyone also pipes up what saw, measuring tape, and lumber they should get, where they should put the bench, and why a bench isn't a good idea compared to lawn chairs.

    The question isn't "I want to be safe, so if I get an AR I will never be hurt." It's "What AR should I get for HD." I can understand questioning whether an AR is the best tool (I disagree, but its at least related), but bringing up the dog and the empty boxes has nothing to do with the AR.

    I came to the rifle forum to ask about a specific piece of my HD puzzle. I go to the handgun forum to ask about handguns, and the S&T forum to ask what else I can do to be safe. I'm just here looking for a suggestion for a value, reliable AR.

    Sidenote: when I clicked on this post, there were 666 people viewing the rifle forum.
     
  21. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood Member

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    At least the irony of someone posting on the internet that you shouldn't believe what you read on the internet should make you smile. :banghead:
     
  22. robMaine

    robMaine Member

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    A condo complex implies very close buildings possibly even shared walls, I would not be grabbing a 5.56 rifle as my first option in this scenario....
     
  23. kb58

    kb58 Member

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    Interesting analogy, and here's another. People come on car forums all the time asking "how can I get 500 hp out of my engine?" People then point out that there's a lot more to it than that, because the tranny, suspension, and tires have to be able to handle it. Because they - and you - didn't say what other arrangments you've made, it's completely normal to question what wasn't mentioned up-front. Please don't jump on others just because they don't automatically assume that you're awesome and infallible. Like the post above, commenting on you living in a condo - stuff like that matters but was left out.
     
  24. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Based on the ballistics I've seen, a 5.56 HD round overpenetrates less than a 12-gauge or a standard handgun round after going through walls, so it's a very GOOD reason to go with a 5.56 over a shotgun/handgun. Reason being that when the bullet is travelling faster, it's easier to engineer how it slows down, and you get more reliable energy dumps.

    KB, a more apt analogy would be "I need 500 HP out of my engine" followed by "you only need 500 HP if you're racing or hauling stuff." The answer has nothing to do with HOW to get 500 HP, but rather implies that 500 HP isn't necessary unless you fit the given scenario.
    See also: Microsoft tech support.

    People don't assume I'm awesome and infallible. They know it.
    People assume I'm not.
    Just kidding.
     
  25. batmann

    batmann Member

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    IMHO, probably the best out there at this time is a Bravo Company. Has EVERYTHING except the ambi safety and is built with quality parts. Go to their web site and that will help. There are other AR's out there, but it is hard to beat the BCM for quality.
     
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