Which lever action for home defense?

[bigfatdave]

Valid points...OTOH a Vz.58 or an M1 Carbine?

Well, an M1 Carbine is a nice indoor defensive longarm, IF it feeds softpoints well* but a levergun feeding high-end .357mag hollowpoints is still a pretty damn good solution.

*(note to self, weather turned months ago, why am I still "waiting for better outdoor range weather" to test my M1 Carbine with soft-nose ammo I bought last fall?)

===

simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.

What makes that round superior to the new "LEVERevolution" rounds from Hornady?
http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-140-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
And do the feebs still have a listed .357 load? And is it formulated for the longer barrel?

**(in the interests of not causing involuntary snoozing, we'll skip the internal ballistics lecture)


===

Seriously, I posted the "ballistics by the inch" link way back, and many posters seem to be unaware that in most cases you get bonus power from a longer barrel** particularly if the ammo is formulated to take advantage of it. A levergun is light, handy, reliable, simple, and more than accurate enough for any reasonable HD work I can think of. Reloads will be slow and capacity will be somewhat lower - I think the OP is aware of that ... otherwise I don't see any major problems with the concept, and a LOT of advantages. With good planning, there's no reason it can't work to provide an immediate and overwhelmingly violent reaction to a home invasion. If sustained fire is needed ... ... well, when is sustained fire really needed?

That being said, my go-to for a HD long gun would probably be the KT sub2000, loaded up with cheap but reliable HP ammo***, or the M1 carbine. That's IF I ever need a long gun, the handgun on my person is much more likely to be used for that purpose simply because it is in reach and fully loaded. Perhaps the OP wants a longarm for more than just repelling ninja zombie pirate meth-head invaders ... and there aren't many varmints I can think of that a .357mag won't eliminate. Add in that a gun that looks more like "grandpa's deer gun" might look better to a jury than a "tacti-blaster 2000", and that the OP might just like leverguns and have a lot of experience running one, and I just don't get the continous "get a .223" and "get a shotgun" suggestions ... the guy wants help picking out a pistol-caliber levergun, not a bunch of peanut-gallery advice to change the entire plan.

*** (I save the premium HPs for handguns, the sub2k can eat leftover premium rounds and cheap WWB just fine)

 

[zxcvbob]

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30

Not hardly; me thinks you confuse the .357Mag. with the 7.62x39mm (which is still less than the .30-30WCF).

Nope, but I did think the .30-30 topped out closer to 2000 fps than it does.

 

[Maverick223]

Well, an M1 Carbine is a nice indoor defensive longarm, IF it feeds softpoints well* but a levergun feeding high-end .357mag hollowpoints is still a pretty damn good solution.

Mine does (and will also feed HPs without failures, which is somewhat rare), a friends did too, but still a valid point as I know that there are some that do not like the soft points. Furthermore, I am absolutely not saying that a .357Magnum is inadequate or ineffective (nor am I saying that you made that conclusion, just thought it would be best to clarify), just stating the case for what I believe are better solutions to the same problem. BTW, you really need to test that in your M1, it makes all the difference in the world WRT terminal performance.

What makes that round superior to the new "LEVERevolution" rounds from Hornady?

In most cases the LEVERevolution rounds afford much better performance, and do so safely (both with pressure and tip design). That said, I would want a lightweight "varmint" bullet for a rifle cartridge (though I don't know about the .357Mag. version, it may be designed for better/quicker expansion).

 

[Kliegl]

Yes rifle cartridge ballistics are typically superior to pistol cartridge. So what?

Point of order - That is not the subject of this thread.
Would a pistol firing carbine be a good HD implement? Sure it would. Is it the best? Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe somewhere in between. Depends a lot on the person driving. Are there better options? Perhaps.

I think you are wrong about a small lever pistol carbine not being a good HD tool. My opinion, you are absolutley entitled to yours.
I think you are wrong for panning valid evidence when it is presented to substantiate that claim, when it is counter to your position.
I think you are wrong for calling into question my experience, when you do not know me or my background. Bush league moves.

Bored now.

I see you're somewhat new. Welcome to THR.

Exactly, it ISN'T the point of the thread, so why do you keep dancing around your little campfire chanting that I'm wrong?

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I grow weary of you throwing up straw men only to shoot them down.

How can I be wrong about saying a pistol cartridge carbine is not a good self defense tool when I never said that?

How can I discount evidence contrary to my claims when I never made that claim to begin with?

As for your experience, I was doing you the favor of assuming your incorrect statements were rooted in inexperience, as opposed to something wrong with your faculties, for instance. I find it ironic that all you do is straw man my points, then accuse me of bush league behavior, although, I got to say, the fake British-extraction bonhomie with your bush league and your takes off those silly beer ads is cute, in junior varsity fashion.

Welcome to the high road indeed. I've noticed that the petty bickering on all forums is here as well, it's just under a veneer of sophistication. I DO like how you pulled out all the arguments, including the "post count" one. What's next? You going to make fun of my handle?

 

[stuckinsocal]

Sorry, "ForumSurfer", but I, and others, will recommend the best thing for the situation.

A lever action gun IS NOT the best thing for a hi-rise small square footage apartment for many reasons.

1. A pistol cartridge carbine will be slower than a pistol, and easier to be grabbed, for not much more muzzle energy.
2. A shotgun is a much better close in gun than a rifle for many reasons.

I'd recommend either a decent pump gun, or a pistol. Consider a .357 revolver.

Fail, dude. You're saying to stay away from the carbine because it's easier to grab than the handgun, but recommend a shotgun. Did you read what you posted?

 

[Red Cent]

I want to buy a lever action for home defense in .357 mag. Ive been looking at the Rossi 92 and Marlins, does anyone have anything to say about the quality of Rossi? Are there any other good options?
Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?

 

[Maverick223]

Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?

I'd say between 1900-2100fps out of the 20in., depending upon the load. By that time you aren't gaining much (and possibly loosing a little), so the 24in. tube is likely to be about 50fps less than the 20in. Anything greater than about 16in. is of little gain (a little more capacity and possibly better balance, but that's it), so I would go with a short carbine for maneuverability.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Ive been looking at the Rossi 92 and Marlins, does anyone have anything to say about the quality of Rossi?

I'm wondering the same thing in my recent pawn shop searches. Used Rossi's are pretty cheap. They seem like a nice, quality lever and are made well with good materials. I'm curious to see what more knowledgeable lever folks think about them.

1. A pistol cartridge carbine will be slower than a pistol, and easier to be grabbed, for not much more muzzle energy.
2. A shotgun is a much better close in gun than a rifle for many reasons.

A pistol is my first firearm to go to, always will be since I don't conceal carry a rifle or wear a rifle at home. Also, I fail to see how a lever gun is any easier to grab than a shotgun since they are both about the same length in HD trim.

 

[Maverick223]

A pistol is my first firearm to go to, always will be since I don't conceal carry a rifle or wear a rifle at home. Also, I fail to see how a lever gun is any easier to grab than a shotgun since they are both about the same length in HD trim.

I believe he is saying that the scattergun has such a gain in effectiveness that the drawback of length is a worthwhile trade-off. To a degree I feel the same way (but I'll take most any long gun over a pistol, especially in the same chambering).

 

[ForumSurfer]

I believe he is saying that the scattergun has such a gain in effectiveness that the drawback of length is a worthwhile trade-off. To a degree I feel the same way

I'd rather have my 870 in that role any day of the week, but I'd have no regrets about using the lever. You have quite a bit of versatility with what load to use in the shotgun, but you still need to aim it. It isn't going to magically hit your threat if you shoot in that general direction any more than a rifle will. If you are going to rule a rifle out based on retention, you need to rule the shotgun out since it has the same dimensions.

I'll take most any long gun over a pistol, especially in the same chambering

Same here.

But my handgun is always on me or by my side. The shotgun is by the safe at the ready, or in the safe while I'm out (sometimes it just lives in the safe and I forget to get it back out). If I know trouble is coming, I'll leave. In my mind, I'll need my home defense weapon right then with little time to spare so I don't have time to grab something in another room. That is the only reason I say a pistol is my first choice. I honestly think that my keeping a long gun at the ready and not directly by my side may be more of a liability than an asset.

 

[Maverick223]

You have quite a bit of versatility with what load to use in the shotgun, but you still need to aim it. It isn't going to magically hit your threat if you shoot in that general direction any more than a rifle will. If you are going to rule a rifle out based on retention, you need to rule the shotgun out since it has the same dimensions.

Agreed on all counts.

But my handgun is always on me or by my side. The shotgun is by the safe at the ready, or in the safe while I'm out (sometimes it just lives in the safe and I forget to get it back out). If I know trouble is coming, I'll leave. In my mind, I'll need my home defense weapon right then with little time to spare so I don't have time to grab something in another room. That is the only reason I say a pistol is my first choice.

I operate in a similar fashion. I have a pistol handy (most often a .45ACP, which isn't a powder puff, but isn't a shotgun/rifle either), and a scattergun at the front of the unlocked (while at home) safe. The pistol is used to get me to the shotgun (or carbine; both are often fairly close at hand, at least at night), time permitting (no guarantees).

 

[jdh]

Rossi 92s are cheap in the pawn shop because the pawn shops get then cheap. Why? Because the owner is fed up with it and just wants to get rid of it fast and recover as much of his investment as possible.

The safety on the Rossi is on top of the bolt. You have to take your hand from the firing position to manipulate it. They have a reputation for not feeding and the lever/trigger feel rough and gritty.

The Marlin cross bolt safety can be worked while the hand is still in position. Should it ever be needed Marlin's customer service is much better to deal with. The Marlin is basically the same as it was in 1894. It is not a modified knock off a classic design. The fit, finish, and build quality of the Marlin is head and shoulders above the Rossi.

If you are going to depend on it to defend your life and property skip the Rossi and buy a Marlin.

My opinion, take it for what you paid for it.

 

[Maverick223]

The safety on the Rossi is on top of the bolt. You have to take your hand from the firing position to manipulate it. They have a reputation for not feeding and the lever/trigger feel rough and gritty.

Personally I don't use levergun safeties...and would rather the feature be completely absent (IIRC someone makes a kit to do just that on the Rossi, and definitely for the Marlin) and use the hammer instead, so for me this is a non issue. Again, I have never had an issue with a Rossi M-92, but I haven't shot a .357Mag. version either.

 

[ripp]

why do you want to be twice as slow for followup shots as with an autoloader? That is what you will be if you pick the lever action, in any make, model or caliber. Also, Ciener makes very nice, l$150 .22 conversion units for low cost, low noise practice with the Mini-14, the AK clones and the AR-15. You have to buy another $300 lever action to have a .22 understudy. Mini-14's, unless you are in a state like NJ, CT, or CA, run less than $400 used, you know. The .22 unit saves you 25c per shot, and you can always sell it for $75, so it's paid for after firing a lousy 300 rds. If you have time to go get a longarm, you also have the time to don a set of earmuffs, and you are crazy if you don't. All powerful guns are much too loud to fire indoors, without earprotection, the blast will too often make you miss subesqenuent shots, due to flinching, even if your first shot is a good one. A "pre set" Kevlar vest, ready to just drop over your head, is a great idea, as is a flashlight, all near the "home gun".

 

[dprice3844444]

the lever action basically was the first assault rifle

 

[Oic0]

Dont bother with leverevolution ammo in .357, unless they have made some changes it was pretty anemic. Buffalobore and double tap sell some 158 grainers ~ 2100fps and some 125s at ~2300fps. I wouldn't advise any of that for home defense though. It would penetrate too much. Shooting one of those hot 125s from DT at a steel horse trailer that the .38s were denting and dropping to the ground, the hot 125 went through and through, same for the small tree behind it... and that was a light hollowpoint. I think it would go through sheet rock like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Panzercat]

After four pages, i think Ron's pretty much washed his hands of this topic.
...Just sayin'.

 

[Badlander]

How true. Ron is defending A 900sf condo in A high rise building. the extra power of A .357 from A rifle as oposed to A handgun is probably of little concern.

 

[Red Cent]

We got his watch fixed yet?

 

[scotjute]

I had an older Rossi lever-action in .357 but did not like it. The accuracy was no better than my 6" barrel pistol, action felt stiff, and the loading ramp was sharp. Got rid of it and bought a Henry Big Boy with 20" barrell. The gun is very accurate, but it does weigh more than I would like. The action is very smooth, and I prefer its removeable magazine rod for ease of loading and un-loading.
If my choice was limited to Rossi or Marlin, would take Marlin.
I chose my caliber to match what I had in a pistol. Easier when traveling/camping to carry one caliber ammo. As mentioned by others the rifle reduces the noise when compared to the pistol. It has plenty of power out to 100 yds.

 

[nipprdog]

********

 

[Maverick223]

How true. Ron is defending A 900sf condo in A high rise building. the extra power of A .357 from A rifle as oposed to A handgun is probably of little concern.

What does the size of living space have to do with anything...a long gun is always more effective (with all else being equal). Doesn't matter if you are shooting across a valley, across a bean field or a across a hallway width-wise.

Besides, we're in Rifle Country...when are you going to learn that the rifle always wins?

 

[Badlander]

I guess you are right. The bad guy shot with A .357 rifle at 25ft will be much deader than the bad guy shot with A .357 handgun. My mistake.

 

[Maverick223]

I guess you are right. The bad guy shot with A .357 rifle at 25ft will be much deader than the bad guy shot with A .357 handgun. My mistake.

First of all, defensive arms are nothing like hunting...dead is not dead...the extra 10ms that the intruder takes to expire might very well matter. Whether or not the assailant expires or not doesn't matter, stopping the attack matters...taking away their ability to retaliate matters. I don't take chances with my life, much less the lives of my loved ones...I take any advantage I can. I fight dirty and I use a big "overkill" firearm that gets the job done (that I can handle).

It might be the difference between him laying dead, and you laying there with him. Secondly NO .357Magnum firearm (be it a rifle or pistol) is a knock 'em on their buttocks weapon...instant incapacitation is very unlikely even with a good center mass/vitals hit (obviously CNS shots do much better, but those shots are not guaranteed), the same IS NOT true of rifle cartridges like the .223Rem. (which effects a far larger area than it's caliber, due mostly to the temporary/permanent wound cavity created by hydro-static shock/cavitation and explosive fragmentation/rapid expansion), much less a good buckshot cartridge (which may not spread like a swarm of angry bees, but absolutely devastates the area impacted and affords much greater chance of hitting CNS vitals).

Again, when available, I will take all the edge I can get...the long-gun gives me that edge.

 

[JustinJ]

It seems to me at HD ranges a semiautomatic handgun is an advantage over a lever action rifle because at that range accuracy is not a huge factor but the semi allows for faster follow up shots.