Which more likely - pump short stroke or semi malfunction?

[Odd Job]

A few years ago I did a two day shotgun course in South Africa with 12 gauge pumps. Everything was nice on the individual drills, stoppages, pointing etc.
But...when there were targets to be had in "shoot-house" I had a short cycle. It happened when I entered a room and saw two targets. Shot the first and then immediately short cycled.
And that was on day one, where every other session had been fine. I'm guessing this must happen more often in actual situations where people face real bodily harm.

If I am ever in a position to get a shotgun for home defense, it will be a semi.

 

[Uniquedot]

Although speed isn't my main concern, I don't agree with those who say the pump gun is faster. It just doesn't square with measurable reality. Proof:

Have you seen Patrick shooting a pump? Not quite as fast, but pretty darned fast! I don't think the argument is whether or not a pump can be fired faster than a gas operated semi, but rather most folks claim they have fewer misses due to getting on target at the end of manipulation. Those folks are simply more used to shooting pumps. I can shoot a semi auto faster, but they are not as reliable.

 

[Odd Job]

It's odd that some people short stroke a pump under stress. I tend to work actions harder when I'm fired up. Not saying it doesn't happen, just seems odd. Is it a matter of fatigue occurring after the first shot of adrenalin wears off?

For me, it was simply a matter of trying to do it too quickly. Brain fires off two intructions in quick succession, which is:

1) Pull that
2) Push that

And do it quick, cos there is a second target!! Did not complete the execution of number 1 before starting number 2.
Must be similar to what happens with cricket players. The ball comes in and the keeper has to catch it and THEN hit the stumps. Many times you see the guy take a grab at the ball, not catch it securely and then hit the stumps with no ball in hand. I suspect that is the same root cause. Maybe to a lesser extent, relay race runners setting off, having dropped the baton.

 

[Zak Smith]

I wouldn't say short cycling exactly is the main problem, though manual cycling is the main cause of the problems. More common than short cycling, in my experience, are:

1. forgetting to cycling the action, or cycling it at the wrong time, especially during loading and loading an empty gnu

2. not exactly short cycling, but first an abbreviated one and then a second pump to "fix it" that causes problems

3. trying to pump the shotgun before it unlocks, then it gets stuck, and then having to basically let off and try it again

I know several serious 3Gunners who compete with pump shotguns and they are not slower than a semi (3Gun stages are usually won by reloading anyway); however, if they are not trained up and at the top of their game, even they can make pump mistakes

 

[9mmepiphany]

i mainly use shotguns for hunting, and never competed. I just don't see how someone familiar with any self manipulated action could short cycle it unless there is some confusion when using different guns

I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained.

The OP specified the circumstances that he wished folks to comment on the suitability of the differing shotgun actions:

You wake them up at 2:00am and add the dynamic deadly stress of a home invasion.

Which is more likely to occur? The semi auto malfunctioning or the pump guy short shucking his 870?

To me, this is the essence of the pump vs. semi auto debate.

I would submit that hunting or even clay games experience drifts a bit far afield form the OP's question

 

[Uniquedot]

I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained.

You obviously haven't attended some of the dove shoots i have.

I would submit that hunting or even clay games experience drifts a bit far afield form the OP's question

Did you read post 17?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Did you read post 17?

I did, I don't see how it relates to the OP at all. You related your wonderment, not direct experience in a dynamic situation

 

[Steve C]

Shoulder fired a semi works very reliably, fired from the hip or in a way that the gun has a lot of free movement to absorb the recoil they become less reliable and have the same issues as limp wristing a semi auto pistol. A strictly mechanical action doesn't have cycling problems like this but if the operator gets lazy or doesn't work the action smartly a short stroke situation can arise with some pump actions.

A side by side or over under with double triggers is probably the most reliable for a 2nd shot of all since there's 2 completely redundant actions in the gun.

Mostly its a bunch of "what ifs". What if its a home invasion and there's more assailants than rounds in the shotgun. What if after firing the first round the other intruders are brave enough to risk their lives and take on the armed defender rather than simply running out the door. You can imagine all kinds of situations and "what if" the scenarios to absurdity.

 

[sniper5]

The one to use is the one you trust. Whichever that is.

 

[Leaky Waders]

"I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained."

You're obviously not a duck hunter.

Put two or three men in a blind with a dog and the shucker will be fiddling with his gun much more than the auto crowd. I think due to the feeling of space...even though there's plenty of room, and because the shucker is wearing a lot more padding in the form of winter clothes than he's accustumed too, so his reach to shuck is longer, and he's worried about slapping someone with his elbow.

 

[huntsman]

The one to use is the one you trust. Whichever that is.

+1 And since all I've hunted with since 82 was a SXS that's what I use, I'm willing to give up more firepower for familiarity and confidence with a platform.

 

[Girodin]

Again, in over thirty years i have never short cycled a shotgun nor have i ever witnessed it. I could not count the number of shotgunners i have hunted with over the years. I had to search the net to find people whom have done this, and what i found was people (mainly kids) that are not familiar with shotguns or guns at all. Even when learning to shoot as a kid i never experienced this practice. To any one that thinks this would be a problem i would say they just need to learn how to shoot and use a firearm properly.

I would submit that IME hunting and running a gun really hard in 3 gun style shooting or the type seen in defensive shotgun courses is a whole different ball game than hunting. I love hunting birds but it is for me very different. Running a gun under stress is different than knocking down a bird in the field.

 

[70extreme]

Hunting can give you a clue into what you will do in less than ideal circumstances.

1. You have to react quickly to unexpected circumstances.
2. You may be cold, hungry, and tired (1-2 hours sleep prior to duck hunt).
3. You may be wearing lots of bulky clothing.
4. You may be firing from less than perfect positions.
5. Your gun may be muddy (duck hunting).

My last hunt, the guy I was hunting with had two short shucks that I noticed.

 

[auschip]

I've had two short cycles in a row on a particularly fun duck/goose combo hunt, with a gun that I have thousands of rounds through. It was a perfect storm combo of cold weather, tired hunter, new oil (needed more). In essence, operator error.

 

[JNewell]

I suppose when one is playing games, and changing actions...one could get confused.

That's nothing compared to what happens when they perceive a deadly force threat to their life or the life of a loved one and get that huge adrenaline dump.

 

[seantyler09]

Winchester 1400 fails less than any pump I've ever shot. Whatever your comfortable with. If truly worried about this purchace the Taurus judge with self defense rounds.

 

[Uniquedot]

Winchester 1400 fails less than any pump I've ever shot.

Both the 1400's in my collection have experienced jams in the field. Some of the folks here can say anything they want, but i know from experience that hunting is hard on guns.! If one wants to compare hunting to shooting games, then i would suggest playing those games in hunting conditions. None of this probably matters when it comes to a gun playing the role as a home defense gun, but in my opinion a home defense gun should be reliable in any conditions outside the home as well.

On a side note a police veteran once told me that "the cycling of the action of a pump shotgun is a universally recognized sound...in every case i was called upon involving such, the people hit the floor before any announcement of a robbery was made".

Buy a good pump gun and learn to cycle it...i also refuse to believe the bs that anyone familiar with his/her gun would fail to fully cycle it, no matter what he/she were facing. Human error by an individual with proper training is far less likely to occur than a semi auto malfunctioning.

To those that disagree...well you just keep on shooting your clays under perfect conditions, and keep telling me i'm wrong.

 

[arizona98tj]

Some folks need to take force on force training where the duck gets to shoot back. Ones perception of how great their hardware is and how infallible their skill set is can quickly change. High adrenaline pump resulting in immediate loss of fine motor skills make pump guns less than desirable. I see it every time I take a tactical shotgun course. I've ran both types.....I now use a semi-auto.....and it doesn't malfunction. If it did, I'd sell it.

Unless you are faced with some kind of high speed suicide duck strapped with C4, the comparison to field hunting comes up quite short, IMO.

 

[Leaky Waders]

"Unless you are faced with some kind of high speed suicide duck strapped with C4, the comparison to field hunting comes up quite short, IMO."

The USMC SSgt who was training our famfire course a few years ago would disagree. After we shot, he was like who taught you to use a shotgun...and I told him it was all learned in the duck blind. Soon afterwards we cleared a few houses - this was Iraq. I never had to fire a shot inside.

Also for pumps, they are hard to cycle when laying down. Narrow spaces may be more challenging too.

Duckhunting, by default as the greatest shooting sport ever known, teaches quick target id (hen or drake of which species), range limits, safety (don't shoot the dog, don't shoot over the dog, don't shoot near the dog, don't have a safety off unless it's your dog in the decoys) and shooting at weird angles.

I upland hunt when I'm not deployed and duckhunting is closed...but there is no comparison to the addiction of duckhunting.

 

[Narwhal]

In shotguns especially, I think this question still has a lot to do with the amount of shooting being done at once (or between cleanings).

For a few dozen, or maybe even a few hundred shots, the semi will be more reliable.

If you start talking about 300+ rounds in one sitting? Pump. Yeah, that doesn't happen very much, but some people don't like to clean their guns either.

 

[70extreme]

Arizona 98, my hunting experience tells me the exact same thing as your force on force.

1. You have to react quickly to unexpected circumstances.
2. You may be cold, hungry, and tired (1-2 hours sleep prior to duck hunt).
3. You may be wearing lots of bulky clothing.
4. You may be firing from less than perfect positions.
5. Your gun may be muddy (duck hunting).

My last hunt, the guy I was hunting with had two short shucks on his 870 that I noticed.

On a M1, M2, M4, or FN SLP mechanical reliability will be greater than human reliability.

 

[Jason_W]

On a M1, M2, M4, or FN SLP mechanical reliability will be greater than human reliability.

They're also very expensive. I've never had any experience with the guns listed above and I likely never will due to their price. For that reason alone, I'm sticking with my Nova for home defense.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Shoulder fired a semi works very reliably, fired from the hip or in a way that the gun has a lot of free movement to absorb the recoil they become less reliable and have the same issues as limp wristing a semi auto pistol.

Might be true for recoil operated semi-auto guns. Totally not true for gas operated. I have an FN SLP and it is, without a doubt, the most reliable gun I've ever owned. Can be shot 1 handed, from the hip, upside down, whatever - it just works. It is far softer recoiling than the Benelli M4, and much easier to keep on target than a pump.

As for speed - you can put 6 hulls in the air simultaneously while keeping the gun on the target. If you can do that with a pump - then you're the bionic man and really don't need a gun.

As for reliability - keep the gun clean - meaning take the thing apart every 500 rounds, clean the gas piston, and lube it. If you can't do that with a gun - don't blame the gun if it doesn't work - that's an owner malfunction not a gun malfunction.

If you want it to function even better with less recoil, send it to SRM and have the Sure Cycle system installed, have them lap the bolt, modify the gas pistons, put in a new magazine follower and better magazine spring, and do the reliability package tune-up.

Then, when you get it back, take it out and shoot at least 300 - 400 rounds through it of all different types of loads, mixed loads, mixed length loads, etc.

When, you're through testing, you will have proved to yourself that it will function with any load you put in it - and then you will no longer question which is better the pump or automatic. You'll also know you truly have a "runner."

Oh, and I do own pumps - they're really not even in the same class of gun, but for the people who insist on the nostalgia of the purported sound of racking a pump makes a perp poop their pants (gee.. I just love alliteration...)

While you're hoping racking the pump promotes the perp to poop - I've gotten off 3 shots...

 

[Myles]

I'll stick to my 870 (as an earlier poster commented, has a very well-worn action and is very "slicked up.")

But, honestly, most modern autos are more reliable than the shooter holding it. That is not a compliment to the firearm.

 

[Dave McCracken]

"Whatever you trust"....

Amen. Trust comes with use.If we KNOW that our weapon has functioned faultlessly hundreds or thousands of time in our hands we can trust it,even under risky, high stakes conditions.

Some thing that gives Yr Humble Scrivener conniption fits is the idea that buying a shotgun, shooting it once before loading it up and closeting it forever(even with flat black accessories) will keep someone safe from harm happily ever after.

Effective weapons usage means perspiration and a high round count.

Go shoot your HD shotguns. Shoot landfill rats, clays, starlings, steel plates or cardboard silohuettes with your boss's name on it. But shoot the thing.

Sermon over. I'm off to the range....