Which of these three guns for a new shooter?

[Skribs]

Hal, there are a number of options that prevent unauthorized access while allowing quick authorized access, including long gun safes, trigger locks, and even simply cutting holes in the side of a handgun safe to allow the receiver/trigger of the shotgun to fit inside.

However, if the goal is that the kid can potentially use the long gun in HD situations, preventing him from accessing said long gun creates a contradictory issue.

 

[Baba Louie]

Which of these three guns for a new shooter?

Please, limit it to these three only:

AR in .22lr
AR in .233
Remington 12 ga. 870.

Brand new shooter with no experience at all with a firearm.
None.

Has never fired a gun before in his life.

The gun my be used for home defense by the man, his wife, and possibly young son - age not known.
Presumadly, the wife and son have never fired a firearm either.

AR in .22lr of those three choices gets my vote. Cheap to feed, FUN to shoot, nil recoil, FUN to shoot, easy to reload new magazine, fun to shoot. Do suggest new owner and wife take a class on safety, basic marksmanship, etc and do same for son when he is old enough.

For someone who has never shot anything before, 12 ga can be intimidating as all getout due to recoil and noise. Need a place to practice as well. A .223 AR, while loud (and noise can be a flinch cause for some) does have minimal recoil, but practice costs are waaay over the same format in .22lr and they need a place to practice so they will gain skill and confidence.

In terms of self defense, a semi auto .22 is better than what they (don't) have now, granted perhaps not the best, but easy to use, reload, keep loaded magazine someplace secure and separate from empty rifle, etc

 

[heavydluxe]

Given the options you've laid out, I would definitely start a 'new shooter' on a rifle.

I think that there are pluses and minuses to both an AR in .22lr or .223 ... I would pick the .22lr for availability of ammo and it's ease for a new shooter. However, I think going whole bore with a centerfire in .223 may be fine depending on how well you know this 'new shooter'.


FWIW, outside of those three options, I would personally start any new shooter with a mag-fed bolt or semiauto .22lr (Savage MkII, Ruger 10/22, Marlin 795, for example).

 

[22-rimfire]

Brand new shooter with no experience at all with a firearm. None. Has never fired a gun before in his life.

22 Rifle such as a Marlin M60 or Ruger 10/22
22 Handgun such as a Ruger SR22-P, Mark III or 22/45 or a 22 revolver
A bigger caliber in whatever type of rifle or handgun they like better (after they learn the basics with the 22's)

Skribs, many can learn with a handgun or rifle more powerful than a 22LR, but why learn with something that costs that much to shoot and could cause bad habits related to recoil?

No shooting experience.... always a 22 and a simple to operate one to boot. They can use the 22 for home defense until they get some experience and knowledge to step up in the power level.

 

[oneounceload]

However, however,,,I've also seen quite a few people (first time gun owners) start out with a shotgun, dislike the recoil, and end up just sticking it in the closet

Only for those who also grab nothing but 00 Buck to start their practice with.

Shoot that AR inside with no hearing protection, you'll now know what deafness abd bleeding from the ear have in common.

LOTS of folks who are blind or have eye issues still shoot shotguns - I only wear one contact even though I need them in both eyes - this gives me one eye for distance and one for close reading. Have punched up starting in D class this year to A so far - and that's shooting tiny orange targets flying through the air at 50 yards - HD distance is NO problem - and therefore NO excuse

 

[22-rimfire]

I might add that IF the "new shooter" has no intention to learn to shoot or shoot beyond hitting a man sized target... I would go with a 38spl revolver and a 12 ga pump shotgun and these would be strictly for home defense. They probably won't shoot 5 rounds with the shotgun and 25 rounds with the handgun. So, go with something to make them feel "protected", but it is somewhat of an illusion.

No pistol grips on the shotgun, just a plain old shotgun with about a 20" barrel.

 

[Hal]

LOTS of folks who are blind or have eye issues still shoot shotguns - I only wear one contact even though I need them in both eyes - this gives me one eye for distance and one for close reading. Have punched up starting in D class this year to A so far - and that's shooting tiny orange targets flying through the air at 50 yards - HD distance is NO problem - and therefore NO excuse

What excuse???
I believe after living with it (having one good eye) for 24 hours a day for 60 plus years.....I'm in a bit of a better positon to know what I can and can't do.

I suck at anything that moves. So what? It's never been a big deal to me in my 60 years. I've just learned to adjust to it.
No biggie.

 

[mf-dif]

AR in 5.56 and a drop-in .22 kit.

 

[danez71]

....you just need to pump (which is very intuitive) in order to get that next shot off.

Personally, I dont think pumping a long gun is intuitive at all; particularly for a new shooter and heavy recoil.

For that reason, of the 3 choices, Id lean towards the other two.

Ive seen .223 pass through 10lb cast iron weights (weight lifting weights). Ive also seen them pass through a lot of other things tougher than drywall and still carry lethal energy. I know what the boxoftruth type tests show but Ive seen it 1st hand waaay too many times to ignore. Its also damn loud for HD (small enclosed area)

Personally, I wouldnt recommend a 223 for HD in general.

For those reasons, based on the OP, and 3 choices, Id say the 22.

But in the spirit of THR, I'll recommend something else. For the cost of the AR 223, buy a 22 rifle and a double barrel shot gun.


That could change though...


The OP said 'training' is not likely. What are the chances of just shooting for fun? If they are willing to do that, then familiarity is better acheived and the 870 move up.

 

[Franco2shoot]

If these folks are even remotely contemplating a Home defense possibility have them take some classes teaching how to use a shotgun. A .22 in a HD situation is only going to pi$$ off any nutjob that is stupid enough to break into an occupied home or apartment. Only a very well placed shot will stop his threat, very unlikely in the hands of a novice. A shotgun on the other hand, removes all accuracy concerns.

KKKKFL

 

[Skribs]

Danez, anything that is going to penetrate through enough tissue is going to go through walls.

 

[Hal]

Re: sound level of the .223:

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

According to the above link, W/an 18 inch barrel, the .223 is at 155.5db

For reference:
12 ga w/28 " barrel is 151db
12 ga w/26" barrel is 156.10db
12 ga w/18" barrel is 161.5db

.380 acp is 157.7db
.38spl is 156db
9x19 is 159.8db
.45acp is 157db

Even the lowly .25acp is listed @ 155.0 db.

Just an FYI....& I agree that simple db readings are only part of the story.

A .22 in a HD situation is only going to pi$$ off any nutjob that is stupid enough to break into an occupied home or apartment.

Join the NRA and get the monthly magazine. The Armed Citizen section has listed hundreds upon hundreds of instances where a .22 was used to great effect to stop an aggressor.

 

[roadchoad]

.22 ar. Won't scare the wife and kid with a huge recoil or blast. When they are comfortable with it, it is an easy gun to sell and moving to a 223 ar will be simple.

 

[benEzra]

Shoot that AR inside with no hearing protection, you'll now know what deafness abd bleeding from the ear have in common.

Hal beat me to it, but a .223, a HD-length 12-gauge, and a 9mm/.40/.45 pistol are about the same loudness, and none of them are as loud as a .357 revolver.

Personally, I dont think pumping a long gun is intuitive at all; particularly for a new shooter and heavy recoil.

I tend to agree. I think it's only intuitive if you've lived and breathed pump shotguns for a long time, and that's not true of a lot of us.

Ive seen .223 pass through 10lb cast iron weights (weight lifting weights). Ive also seen them pass through a lot of other things tougher than drywall and still carry lethal energy. I know what the boxoftruth type tests show but Ive seen it 1st hand waaay too many times to ignore. Its also damn loud for HD (small enclosed area)

Personally, I wouldnt recommend a 223 for HD in general.

Load choice makes a huge difference in .223 penetration, just as it does with 12-gauge. Midweight civilian .223 JHP (*not* FMJ) penetrates less in drywall than most pistol JHP and even 12-gauge 00 buckshot.

 

[orionengnr]

You don't have to learn on a .22, its just cheaper to do so. Uncle Sam trains people to shoot just fine without any .22s...

...because he isn't paying for the ammo. We are...or, to be more accurate, about 50% of us are...
If money is no object, I would buy a nice AR with a .22LR conversion kit. I looked at a CMMG unit that seems to draw some favorable reviews, and it runs about $125-150.

.22LR ammo is cheap and (for now, still somewhat) plentiful. Spend a bunch of time and very little money learning the AR MOA using .22LR ammo...then move to .223/5.56 when the situation dictates.

 

[Hokkmike]

Another vote for AR in .223.

 

[rskent]

Another vote for an AR in 5.56.
If they were open to other options for home defense I would strongly suggest a Glock 19.

 

[bannockburn]

I would go with an AR in .223 with the option of adding a .22LR conversion kit to it.

 

[mcdonl]

A .22 in a HD situation is only going to pi$$ off any nutjob that is stupid enough to break into an occupied home or apartment. Only a very well placed shot will stop his threat, very unlikely in the hands of a novice.KKKKFL

Criminals have a very high sense of self preservation. In a home, being shot at and knowing you are hit is some pretty heavy stuff (Been to shootings of .380 and .22) and the thoughts of (Oh God im going to die) was common with both of them although neither did.

The damage is secondary to the "Oh crap, someone is shooting at me"....

 

[Krusty783]

AR in 5.56 and a drop-in .22 kit.

+1

.22 ammo is cheap and not intimidating. .223 isn't that rough either, but it's definitely enough for a SD/HD situation.

12 gauge recoil can be quite intimidating. Why would you give a complete neophyte a 12 gauge unless you're trying to make them think twice about firearms? Take someone who's never shot before, buy them an 870 and take them to a range to shoot some birdshot and 3 1/2 mag rounds ? Not if you want to remain their friend...

If this is something that's not going to be practiced, or used , and kept under a bed, etc. Then there are a few options:
A).223 AR with frangible ammo
B) 9mm handgun/hi-point with frangible ammo (hi-points might not be top of the heap, but a rifle-format firearm can be more intimidating than a handgun)
(if this is truly a HD firearm, frangible bullets will mitigate the risk of taking out friendlies 2 rooms away from the action.
C) 20 ga. auto-loader with birdshot
-Working a shotgun slide is not natural, and could easily stump someone with little experience in a high stress/life or death scenairo. An auto-loader removes this risk. And you don't need 00 buck or a slug to shoot someone across a room. Smaller shot will also reduce the chance of downrange collateral damage.
D) 12 ga auto-loader with birdshot.
E) Taurus Judge
-Intuitive point and shoot and 410 or 45 shells. Good for CQ situations.

 

[allaroundhunter]

12 gauge recoil can be quite intimidating. Why would you give a complete neophyte a 12 gauge unless you're trying to make them think twice about firearms? Take someone who's never shot before, buy them an 870 and take them to a range to shoot some birdshot and 3 1/2 mag rounds ?

Why would I give a 12 ga to a new shooter? Because it is easy to learn on, ammo is always available, it is very versatile, and it is a great defensive gun.

12 ga recoil with birdshot and even low recoil buckshot is more than tolerable for most. You can add a limbsaver and make it even easier. There is no reason to take someone new to guns to the range and give them some 3.5" mag rounds, heck, if you did that to me I wouldn't be your friend and I have been shooting for quite some time.

The problem with a semi-automatic shotgun is that some (especially cheaper ones) are very finicky with ammo. If one malfunctions, clearing it is not exactly common sense. A pump is less liable to malfunction, especially if you just take the person out to shoot some clay pigeons once in a while so that they are operating the gun on occasion.

And fwiw, I have bought someone an 870 and taken them to the range with it on the very same day. My little brother was shooting it like a champ, and the recoil didn't bother him a bit (and he is 5' 0" and 95 lbs).... He recently used that same gun to defend himself from a feral dog and fired 3 shots of low-recoil 00 buck without short-stroking the gun once. He doesn't even remember the recoil, which is as to be expected in situations like that.

 

[JBrady555]

If you have no firearms presently I would go with the Remington 870. They are awesome for home defense, especially for new shooters in my opinion, , great for hunting all manner of food if ever needed, and you can play clay target games with it.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

AR in .223. The Linkin-logs/Legos of the firearms market.

But really... A 10-22 first.

 

[Daveboone]

If the main shooting individual wasnt getting training, I certainly wouldnt encourage either of the family members learning from them.
Simplicity, repeated a hundred times for safety sake for a new shooter who isnt getting instruction, and that wouldnt include any semi automatic. There is no more difficult gun to learn to shoot reliably than a pump action shotgun. It is difficult to get new pump shooters to understand how briskly and consistently they need to be "pumped" for reliable feed.
If ammo budget is any sort of concern, obviously there is a budget concern for the gun itself.
If a semi automatic is the main choice, without a doubt, I would recommend (as others have) a well proven Marlin model 60 or Ruger 1022. The Rugers quickly and easily removed magazine has a new shooters safety edge over the tube feed, and the inexpensive price should leave any budget plenty of money for ammo and a shooting club membership for practice.

 

[allaroundhunter]

It is difficult to get new pump shooters to understand how briskly and consistently they need to be "pumped" for reliable feed.

It really is not difficult to teach someone how to pump a shotgun. You don't have to teach them that they already should have rearward pressure on the pump when the pull the trigger as it is not necessary. You teach them to pull the trigger, and slam the pump towards them. Once there, they don't even have to slam it forward immediately. They could hold it there for 5 minutes and then as soon as they were ready they could inch it forward and it would go into battery.

You do not need to be extremely fast operating a pump for it to be reliable.