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Which school of thought do you fall into re: hunting w/o permission?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, Oct 9, 2009.

?

Which theory do you subscribe to?

  1. A

    172 vote(s)
    86.9%
  2. B

    17 vote(s)
    8.6%
  3. C

    1 vote(s)
    0.5%
  4. D

    8 vote(s)
    4.0%
  5. E

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. Lonestar.45

    Lonestar.45 Member

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    Anything other than "A" in my neck of the woods is a good way to get in some serious trouble.

    YMMV
     
  2. jim in Anchorage

    jim in Anchorage Member

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    I never worry about private land. The &#%@ park "service" is a different matter.
     
  3. CajunBass

    CajunBass Member

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    Totally off toic, but I was sitting in my Bronco one morning waiting for half light so I could head into Pocohantas State Forrest to bowhunt, when the game warden pulled up. It was then I rememberd that I hadn't gotten my state forrest stamp.

    I got out of the truck and greated the GW and said "Well you got me if you want me." and told him I had forgotten to get my state forrest stamp.

    He sort of laughed and said "Well, you aren't hunting yet, are you? The courthouse open in an hour or so. Run up there and get one before you start. Good luck now."
     
  4. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    How about leaving legal issues out of this discussion, as requested several times by the OP? Otherwise, I'll have to put a lock on the gate.

    Tim, just starting a car begins wear and tear; driving does even more--which means that money must be spent for maintenance sooner than planned. Walking on land does not harm the land or the landowner's billfold.
     
  5. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Actually, it does. A man who will not bother to ask permission will also leave gates open, shoot at farm implements, bring his 4X4 onto the property to retrieve the carcass of the deer he killed.

    And your paying hunters, seeing just anyone is allowed to hunt on you land will stop paying.
     
  6. PA Dave

    PA Dave Member

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    I understand where Tim is coming from, I think he is just equating his personal stance on the issue with a legal/ethical stance. I don't hunt any private land without permission, even though the law may allow it. The original post asked what our stance is, not whether or not our stance is legal.
     
  7. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Vern, all that would probably work better had you used the word "some". But some folks will do wrong even on land where they have permission.

    My playground area of some 20,000 acres has around 1,000 owners of the small tracts. Maybe 30 or 40 ever come out hunting for one of the three weekends in our mule deer season. We've had a "Code of the West" evolve, where folks hunt where others are not hunting. The only abuse or vandalism comes from outsiders, non-hunters or poachers, who will come in when it's not hunting season.

    Add "behavior" to the "There's no One Size Fits All" examples.
     
  8. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    Sadly, in my neck o' the woods we've had rampant abuse of private land by hunters in every form you can imagine. The percentage of hunters doing the damage is, I suspect, really low, but the rest of us pay the price. We've lost thousands of acres of huntable private ground to "no trespassing" signs in the last decade or so.

    This is land that I've hunted since I was a child with no issues. It usually goes like this:

    "Hey Joe, I noticed you posted that 40 acres up main canyon, can I get written permission?"

    "Well, no. Look, I'm really sorry, I've known your dad since he was a boy and he was bucking hay for me in the summers, and I know that like him, you're OK. But I've had so much trouble with cut fences, crop damage, gates left open, and other stuff, that I've just shut it down. If you aren't family, you don't hunt on my ground."


    I can't tell you how many times I've had conversations similar to that in the last 10 years. We've also fallen victim to massive urban sprawl, and sadly, there are some hunters with big money that figure they can do what they damn well please. It's cost us a lot of huntable acreage.

    As for me, if it's fenced, but not posted and not cultivated, I'll hunt it. If it's cultivated I just won't hunt it without permission. Posted, without permission from the landowner I won't hunt it either.

    In my book, to do otherwise is to invite ill feelings towards hunters, and doing so makes the old saying "we are our own worst enemy" become a self fulfilling prophecy.
     
  9. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    That's strange. I mean, if he KNOWS you, that's a different scenario from just not giving permission to random strangers who pull up in a pickup with camo on.
     
  10. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Hunting someone else's land without permission -- even if it is uncultivated -- is why landowners no longer give permission, even to those who ask.
     
  11. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    AB- Sadly I understand because there are other folks like me that ARE trouble, and the landowner has better things to do than argue the "Why can he and I can't?" Every time something's in season.

    Vern- Just a little clarity here: I'm talking about ground that I've hunted for years and know the landowners. Permission was granted years ago to my family by the same clear back when my father or grandfather was a boy, and it's understood we don't have to go back every year and ask face to face for every hunt. Now, if it's an area that I've not hunted before and it's fenced? I won't hunt it.

    I do make an honest effort to know where the private ground is where I hunt, but if it's unfenced, unposted and not signed as to being private property, and uncultivated in a new area new to me? I'll hunt that, as there's no real way to know if it's private or not without a GPS and a US gelogical map on you.

    We've had instances where folks have tried claiming areas as "private ground" when it absolutely is not. The classic you beat me to my favorite spot, so I'll try to snake you out of it thing. These are the same types that do ignore "posted" signs, bag limits, etc.
     
  12. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Yup. Sometimes they're ranchers, too. They not only do their welfare grazing, but they threaten to shoot people who hunt the BLM land they're using. See my post above.

    I know where Vern is coming from. Hunters are responsible for vandalism, crop destruction, etc.

    I just don't think he has any idea of the differences between the geography, laws and conventions where he lives, and in the Mountain West.

    That doesn't mean I hunt clearly private land without permission. I wouldn't.

    Much of Idaho is rangeland, though. The presence of someone's cattle does NOT imply that the land is private, either. Just south of town, there's an area that used for hunting, raptor conservation, National Guard training, plinking, dirt-biking, as well as grazing cattle. It's all perfectly legal, perfectly moral, and we all coexist.

    I'm sure you won't find that where he lives, so his assumptions are completely different from ours.
     
  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    I've done plenty of hunting in the Mountain West.

    First of all, maps and GPS are cheap insurance against trespassing and getting lost. And a visit to the tax assessor to check if the land you intend to hunt is privately owned is common sense.

    Second, while BLM land can be hunted, courtesy is always a good idea. Don't cross private land without permission to get to BLM land. Pay a call on the rancher renting the BLM land. Make friends, not enemies.
     
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Never said anything about getting lost, or crossing private land without permission. Crossing it is no different from hunting it, and getting lost is potentially suicidal in the Mountain West.

    If it's BLM or National Forest? I have a day job, sorry. Things to do.

    Not when "courtesy" means asking someone if I can hunt public land. Cattlemen can be at least as bad as any hunter, so I'm not going to let someone lie to me because he sees the opportunity. Otherwise, I'm courteous to everyone I meet in the field, hunting or not.

    Sorry, but whatever you're hearing from us is not what we're saying, Vern. You're obviously angry about this, and there's no reason to be. I carry around bags to pick up slob hunters' shotshell hulls and slob campers' trash where I go. I pick up others' dog****. I tell hikers and campers that my gun is unloaded when I'm hiking in or out so they know I'm not going to shoot them. I don't hunt private land without permission.

    And you really don't sound like you've hunted anywhere around here.
     
  15. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    And you sound like you take this personally.
     
  16. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page really guys. But I do hear what AB is saying. I do make an honest effort to know where the private ground is.

    But I don't feel an honest effort is a day off work to drive to DWR HQ, buy a very expensive survey map, and then spend another three days preforming a mini-survey in the area I am hunting. There is a balance point in there.

    We actually had a rancher mysteriously shot and killed years back a few weeks after he denied permission to hunt his ground(the denial was a VERY heated exchange, but there was never any proof who, so no charges were filed due to lack of evidence), and the oppisite as well, where a guy with grazing rights was riding gaurd on BLM land. Why? The previous year, some idiot shot one of his cows and tagged it with their doe tag.:what:

    I think courtesy, respect, and common sense should be the rule of the day. A lot of incidents and issues are avoided that way.
     
  17. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Vern, you have specifically targeted what I've posted, based on assumptions that have nothing to do with the reality of hunting here.

    IMO that says a lot more about you than it does about me, but if it sounds like I was responding to what you wrote in response to my posts, yes, in fact, I was.
     
  18. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    He has every right to guard his herd.

    However, if he uses a firearm to try to force someone off public land, as happened to some friends of mine, I'll press charges if at all possible.
     
  19. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    It looks like you've lost your cool and want to blame someone else.
     
  20. Geno

    Geno Member

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    Wise to be respectful. I choose "A". :)
     
  21. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    Exactly what he was doing. He ended up charged and convicted of interfering with the lawful pursuit of game, IIRC.

    AB, Vern? May I extend an olive brach in peace to you two? Heck, let's go down to the local watering hole, and I'll buy the drinks.;)
     
  22. schlockinz

    schlockinz Member

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    After living in the wonderful land that is Vernal UT, I could see that happen (mainly due to the rampant drinking and shooting that I saw out there).

    Still hold to B, still don't know where my lease really ends and my neighbors really begins, they never have either, stands just aren't put up in areas that are possibly disputed, everyone gets along, 'cept the people that I'll get arrested for poaching or road hunting.
     
  23. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Pull up that county's tax assessor website and get the name of the owner - takes about 5 minutes and it's free - ask permission.

    To you folks who trespass without permission - if it was YOUR land - would YOU want someone you don't know thrashing about with loaded guns? What if they shoot something not allowed, like an eagle? or their poor shot travels off your land and injures/kills someone ? YOU get held responsible....no thanks.

    AB I understand what you're saying about public multi-use BLM land - hunted it for over 20 years in CO and NV - there are some prime spots for sheep that have been locked out by folks buying the private land around the public land and cutting off access. But I have also seen where there ia private land interspersed among public lands - and it was the responsibility of the hiker/hunter to know where he was - it was NOT the responsibility of the owner to post or fence his property - and trespassing was against the law.

    Seems to me that some folks are afraid to ask permission because they might get told NO nowadays, when previously it wasn't an issue.

    I've had someone call the sheriff because I was hunting behind their house on a hill. When I proved to the sheriff that I was legal and on BLM land, they helped me and my son drag the deer down to the truck. Then they proceeded to inform the homeowner (a CA transplant) that what i was doing was perfectly fine. Had I been on the other side of the jeep trail on the mountain side, I would have been guilty - but it was MY responsibility to know where I was
     
  24. wep45

    wep45 Member

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    does this also apply to your house, car and family members??
     
  25. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    If there's any indication that is is private land, I do so. But out here, there are a lot of little private chunks stuffed in the middle of BLM, NF, or state owned land with no physically marked boundaries anywhere to be seen. The only way you'll know is by driving out there, covering the entire area you intend to hunt on foot while taking a physical GPS reading, and then consulting the maps. That much work is a little out of bounds to request I think. Out here, landowners that do care if you trespass have at least taken the time to mark boundaries.
     
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