Uncle Mike
Member
H K
H igh
K alonic
H igh
K alonic
Which to choose from. PTR Vs. DPMS 308?
- Thread starter kmcintosh78
- Start date
- Status
stubbicatt
Member
I sense a great deal of animosity towards HK? If the guy wants one, more power to him. Probably he will be able to sell it for what he paid for it. They command a higher price for reasons beyond my grasp! You are right about them being stamped with little machining, but so what? These rifles work well, are AK reliable, shoot 308, have a whole lot of neat accessories. You can't go wrong with the HK 91, or Gew.3.
Years ago when I first started messing around with firearms etc., the Hk stuff was already high priced. The Rolex guys seemed to think they were buying quality, or maybe they thought they were buying "exclusivity." Heck, magazines were like $40 apiece! Now? $3 apiece.
It is a great rifle. Whether it is worth what they sell for is a determination that can only be made by each individual.
Years ago when I first started messing around with firearms etc., the Hk stuff was already high priced. The Rolex guys seemed to think they were buying quality, or maybe they thought they were buying "exclusivity." Heck, magazines were like $40 apiece! Now? $3 apiece.
It is a great rifle. Whether it is worth what they sell for is a determination that can only be made by each individual.
Maverick223
Member
Not here, I like (and own) H&K, but I won't pay 3x as much because it has those two letters on it.
I did a lot of research 9 months ago and chose the PTR. I spent a lot of money on the platform including the .22 conversion and Hendsolt scope.
Once we thawed out and I took it to the range, I was disappointed. This battle rifle that was supposed to be dead nuts reliable couldn't properly cycle surplus ammo. Even the PRVI M80 ammo would not cycle.
After then doing more research (keep in mind this was a couple months later by this time) I discovered that many people had this same issue. Basically, the barrel they put in was optimized for accuracy, not reliability. The solution is to put in a HK made barrel which runs $200+ just for the barrel. Then, it's another $250+ for the gunsmith's time to install it and finish it etc.
So, after all of that, I would also say look for a good FAL. I think the DPMS like others have said is the most accurate. However, it's not "battle proven" so you need to factor that in.
I almost wish I would have just got a HK91. I have seen them locally for about $1800 which isn't that much more than you would spend on a PTR after upgrading the barrel etc.
That said, I do have a second PTR (see how committed I was to the platform) that performs much more reliably with the PRVI ammo. So, it may be luck of the draw on which PTR you get. Are you willing to run that risk on a $1000+ rifle?
Once we thawed out and I took it to the range, I was disappointed. This battle rifle that was supposed to be dead nuts reliable couldn't properly cycle surplus ammo. Even the PRVI M80 ammo would not cycle.
After then doing more research (keep in mind this was a couple months later by this time) I discovered that many people had this same issue. Basically, the barrel they put in was optimized for accuracy, not reliability. The solution is to put in a HK made barrel which runs $200+ just for the barrel. Then, it's another $250+ for the gunsmith's time to install it and finish it etc.
So, after all of that, I would also say look for a good FAL. I think the DPMS like others have said is the most accurate. However, it's not "battle proven" so you need to factor that in.
I almost wish I would have just got a HK91. I have seen them locally for about $1800 which isn't that much more than you would spend on a PTR after upgrading the barrel etc.
That said, I do have a second PTR (see how committed I was to the platform) that performs much more reliably with the PRVI ammo. So, it may be luck of the draw on which PTR you get. Are you willing to run that risk on a $1000+ rifle?
NelsErik
Member
Doesn't Jeff Quinn from Gunblast say that his DPMS LRT-SASS .308 AR is the most accurate rifle he has ever fired...
He says it here
and
and here...
He says it here
and
and here...
Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
I've owned both. If I wanted the more accurate of the two for target work, I'd go with the LR-308. If I wanted something more rugged and a little different, I'd go PTR-91. Mine would keep 10 shots inside a silver dollar all day long, which is all I really wanted out of it.
Hatterasguy
Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,604
I'd buy the HK because for starters I can sell it in 5 years for the same or more than what I paid, but also the PTR IMHO falls short.
PTR uses a cheap steel barrel, I want at least chrome if not nitride, thats a deal breaker for me.
IMHO its not like DSA, DSA actualy builds a better Fal than FN did. PTR doesn't build a better G3.
BTW I don't own any HK products, I think they are all overpriced.
PTR uses a cheap steel barrel, I want at least chrome if not nitride, thats a deal breaker for me.
IMHO its not like DSA, DSA actualy builds a better Fal than FN did. PTR doesn't build a better G3.
BTW I don't own any HK products, I think they are all overpriced.
Last edited:
Z-Michigan
Member
For all those saying the G3/PTR is battle proven - it's also proven that it can be disabled by denting the receiver. The G3 armorer's tool kit actually includes a hammer for removing dents (which cause the bolt carrier to hang up). Yes, it has a pretty good reputation for real world reliability, but I don't know of any other gun, including the stamped AKM, that can be readily disabled by denting its receiver.
The LR-308 is by no means battle proven, but it is basically a larger AR, and you can readily buy and store all the likely breakage items. DPMS sells a $65 spares kit that has everything that might break with the exception of the bolt itself.
But I don't think the OP indicated plans to go to Mogadishu anyway. For hunting or range use I don't think there is any comparison.
The LR-308 is by no means battle proven, but it is basically a larger AR, and you can readily buy and store all the likely breakage items. DPMS sells a $65 spares kit that has everything that might break with the exception of the bolt itself.
But I don't think the OP indicated plans to go to Mogadishu anyway. For hunting or range use I don't think there is any comparison.
PTR's are great battle rifles, most accuracy reports run from 1.5 -2.5" but have been battle tested as unbeatable (well maybe not the ptr's exactly but the g3). The AR 10's have never had a huge reputation for unstoppable reliability but hard to tell if that is rumor or true. I know newer versions of the AR 10 are reliable just not sure how much so, after all the knights armament has a contract to replace the m14 as a DMR. The AR 10 will have incredible accuracy, sub MOA.
I had an HK91 some years ago. It was a no nosense close battle rifle, mine had the set trigger. That first shot is the best, the followups had a longer reset. I had no issues with it. I ran 150 gr, 168 gr, and maybe some 175 gr through it. Mine had a port buffer, no brass issues, in fact it dropped most of it with a couple of feet. I had both the standard stock and the collapsable. The sights were OK, just OK. but not bad or good. I think it would shine with a Holo or Red Dot though.
Cocking handle isn't hard or bad or complicated, It's actually pretty handy IMO. Open bolt ready, slap the handle to cycle and start shooting.
I really boils down to what feels good, that you can shoot well. I've been issued M16's and owned AR's, I actually prefer (have) an M1a, and have a PTR.
Cocking handle isn't hard or bad or complicated, It's actually pretty handy IMO. Open bolt ready, slap the handle to cycle and start shooting.
I really boils down to what feels good, that you can shoot well. I've been issued M16's and owned AR's, I actually prefer (have) an M1a, and have a PTR.
Maverick223
Member
Well...that about sums that up. I do own an HK (not a G3, HK-91, nor do I own a PTR-91 right now), but I have experience with both and wouldn't pay for the difference; nor do I don't purchase any rifle for a better resale (there are better investments than rifles), I buy em' cause I like to shoots em'.
Hatterasguy
Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,604
Their are far better investments than rifles. I just view them as a hobby, and a purchase that holds its value a bit better than say a computer.
RobMoore
Member
As for the HK vs PTR copy
If I were buying it to impress my friends at the rod and gun club, I'd buy the HK.
If I were buying it to shoot, I'd get the PTR-91
If I were buying it to impress my friends at the rod and gun club, I'd buy the HK.
If I were buying it to shoot, I'd get the PTR-91
Maverick223
Member
I have to agree with that. I think anything except for food holds value better than 'puters.
Yep.
Retro
Member
PTR91:
1. Self-cleaning at the range (ejects the brass 30 feet forward in an oblique angle, i.e. you never have to clean up those dented brass ... they are so far and away).
2. Completely free-floated design (nothing on the barrel is touching anything...)
3. consistent cheek weld with the Magpul-PRS.
4. Thompson center Chrome Moly match grade bull barrel
5. Must purchase the version with wielded rail on the receiver, as aftermarket claw-mount are notoriously inconsistent and moves during recoil (original HK claw mount is fitted to the individual receiver and carries the same serial number).
6. Faster rate of cycling.
7. Does not feed tar-sealed surplus 7.62.
8. 1/12 twist favors 150 grain, not 175 or above (which requires 1/10 twist rate).
9. When PTR91 goes out of business, there will be no more HK91 clones left in this country...
LR308:
1. Play between upper and lower receiver will alter the consistency of your cheek weld because the scope in on the upper receiver, and the stock is on the lower receiver.
2. Problem with DPMS steel mags, causing failure to feed, or warping the bullet during feeding... a big problem in the recent months.
3. Not truly "free-floated" as the gas tube is contact with the barrel and the bolt.
4. frequent dissembly of upper and lower receiver will enlarge the aluminum rear pivot hole in the lower receiver and gradually cause play between the 2 receivers.
5. Great for 168 grain or above due to 1/10 twist rate.
6. thicker bull barrel than PTR91, also heavier.
Retro
1. Self-cleaning at the range (ejects the brass 30 feet forward in an oblique angle, i.e. you never have to clean up those dented brass ... they are so far and away).
2. Completely free-floated design (nothing on the barrel is touching anything...)
3. consistent cheek weld with the Magpul-PRS.
4. Thompson center Chrome Moly match grade bull barrel
5. Must purchase the version with wielded rail on the receiver, as aftermarket claw-mount are notoriously inconsistent and moves during recoil (original HK claw mount is fitted to the individual receiver and carries the same serial number).
6. Faster rate of cycling.
7. Does not feed tar-sealed surplus 7.62.
8. 1/12 twist favors 150 grain, not 175 or above (which requires 1/10 twist rate).
9. When PTR91 goes out of business, there will be no more HK91 clones left in this country...
LR308:
1. Play between upper and lower receiver will alter the consistency of your cheek weld because the scope in on the upper receiver, and the stock is on the lower receiver.
2. Problem with DPMS steel mags, causing failure to feed, or warping the bullet during feeding... a big problem in the recent months.
3. Not truly "free-floated" as the gas tube is contact with the barrel and the bolt.
4. frequent dissembly of upper and lower receiver will enlarge the aluminum rear pivot hole in the lower receiver and gradually cause play between the 2 receivers.
5. Great for 168 grain or above due to 1/10 twist rate.
6. thicker bull barrel than PTR91, also heavier.
Retro
stubbicatt
Member
Wow. That's cool. I'll be very careful on my range excursions to NOT dent the receiver, as I don't have one of those hammers...
I am sure that any rifle receiver can be damaged in such a way as to render it inoperable. Inadequate lubrication, perhaps dirt or sand, an errant round, all these can ruin your rifle. In all the time I've shot my PTR91, I've not had any of these issues, but then I'm not wading through alligator infested swamps, scaling cliffs, or any of these things. I calmly drive to the range, remove the rifle from its padded case, insert a magazine, charge the weapon and fire a few rounds. I chat with my buddies, maybe drink some water, go for a hike, then I put the rifle back in its case, drive home, remove it again for thorough cleaning, place it in the safe, and drink a beer.
If your use for a rifle routinely exposes it to damage due to denting, then WHATEVER YOU DO don't get one of these rifles.
Instead, get a muzzle loader, so you can be sure not to damage the receiver. praharin
Member
At some point this year, CMMG is supposed to be releasing a .308 AR platform that accepts G3 mags. They have receivers now, but they require some minor machining to make it work from what I have read.
Maverick223
Member
Wow, I don't know what would be better the DPMS with PMags that are relatively cheap and very reliable/durable, or the CMMG with G3 mags that are the cheapest mags available and still very reliable. Just my 99 cents (G3 mags
), but I think I would have to take the CMMG.Z-Michigan
Member
G3 mags are not designed to activate a last-shot bolt hold-open. I would suggest that the standard AR10 mags are better, now that there are $19 .308 Pmags, $20 CP stainless mags, and G3 mag prices are going up.
I've heard that this was attributed to a tight and/or slightly rough chamber. If you talk with the PTR customer service, I've heard that they are only intended to function with commercial .308. From what I've heard, they work fine with surplus after a few hundred rounds break in. I should be able to tell you soon.
A friend and I each have one, we experienced the same problem with surplus. They both run fine with commercial .308, I ran mine with a few boxes of Federal. My buddy's functioned fine with steel cased Monarch; supposedly questionable for a fluted chamber like this.
Z-Michigan
Member
The PTR I used to have ran best on Brown Bear, another steel cased ammo. Hard steel cases are not a problem; the problem is soft brass cases that tend to stick to the chamber more than intended, especially as it gets dirty. If I still had a PTR I would probably be feeding it Bear ammo exclusively. (Mine did run fine on Federal and Magtech brass cased ammo as well, FWIW.)
wally
Member
There are no "standard AR10" mags. There are two styles, seemingly modified M14 mags, but they are not interchangeable. There is the original Armalite/Knight's type and the DPMS type. During the ban jigs were sold to modify M14 mags, results were spotty as good M14 mags weren't easy to find then either.
I can't verify it, but one of the gun show magazine dealers I trust (sounds like and oxymoron in the making
) says the PMag will be DPMS style. He didn't know if Armalite style would follow or not.C-Products mags have been hit and miss for me, I've been able to fix most all of them, but can't recommend them as you shouldn't need to be filing feed lips (for bolt clearance) or replacing springs on new mags.
--wally.
Z-Michigan
Member
Well actually there is the original Armalite type (1950's AR-10) which is shared with Knight's Armament, DPMS, POF, and possibly others, and then there is the Armalite company of Illinois (fka Eagle Arms) type used in the modern "AR-10" and not used by anyone else.
In my view the first type referred to is THE standard AR-10 magazine, since it is the same type used by the original AR-10, although I realize that gets confusing since the "AR-10" made today by Armalite/Eagle Arms doesn't use that mag style. This is a matter of viewpoint, I guess.
I have sitting next to me two of the .308 Pmags. They are for the Knights/DPMS/original AR-10 type magwell. So far so good. I am not aware of whether Magpul plans a version for the Armalite (fka Eagle Arms) type magwell, which is a modified M14 mag design.
While I have had bad luck with C Products in their aluminum 5.56 mags, their stainless steel .308 mags so far are working well, and in fact seem to be better than the DPMS mags. YMMV
Retro
Member
DPMS mags are horrible... period. My rifle won't fire 3 rounds without having a FTF or have severely bent my round that it flies off 7 MOA to the right. I switched to Cmag mags, and problem solved. Magpul now has a version for DPMS, not AR-10.
- Status
