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Which would be better for deer...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by bernie, Sep 1, 2009.

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  1. bernie

    bernie Member

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    ... a .30 Carbine with a 110 gr. softpoint or a .223 with a 64 gr. Winchester Power Point.

    I have hunted deer for years, but rarely with modern rifles. My son has an opportunity to go on our youth deer hunt on a friends property and I have access to an M1 Carbine and an AR15. He shoots both equally well. The long shot will be 100 yards at the max, 75 yards more likely. The deer are also smaller deer.

    Please give me input on this question. I know I will be told neither will work, or to buy something else, but these are not really options. I have killed many deer, some with 1911A1's in .45 ACP, so I am familiar with what it takes to drop a whitetail. Thanks for your help.
     
  2. Big_E

    Big_E Member

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    Depends on the laws in the state. If it requires anything larger than .223 then .30 carbine. If there were no restrictions I would pick .223 but both would be alright.
     
  3. bernie

    bernie Member

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    Restrictions simply call for a centerfire cartridge.
     
  4. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Mind you I have never tried either, but my money is on the .30 Carbine due to the more favorable TKO value despite a small energy deficit. Just keep the shots close in or either (I would limit to 50yds...but 100 should be alright). :)
     
  5. dispatch55126

    dispatch55126 Member

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    Are you hunting in woods or are you going to have shots exceeding 100 yards? For close range, use the .30 Carbine and have fun with it. For longer ranges, use the .223. Teach proper shot placement and either will drop a deer.
     
  6. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    We use .223 for deer culling a lot, and some of the guys down here hunt with them exclusively. Either the 64 gr. PP or the 53 or 62 gr. DPX will work fine. Personally I prefer the DPX as it always seems to perform well and completely exits even after hitting bone.
     
  7. Visionz45

    Visionz45 Member

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    How big are the deer your going after? Shot placement is going to be paramount with either. That 64gr. 223 load leaves the muzzle with a light 1269 Lbs of energy and only holds slight over 1000 pounds at the 100 yard mark. That .30 carbine is way to light energy wise. To make things even worse both of those rifles have shorter barrels than the rifles used to obtain those ballistic specs so your handicapping yourself even more. Light loads can kill deer but just because something can be done doesn't make it ethical.
     
  8. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I think you would find very little real world difference between the two, especially with good ammo.

    My dad killed two mule deer in one day with the .30. I'm not going to try it.
     
  9. Visionz45

    Visionz45 Member

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    just from talking a lot of hunting w/folk over the years, most people, not all people, who tout the .223 as a deer round aren't much of hunters and I bet they wound and lose there share of deer. Ive never lost a deer in 15 years of hunting. I'm speaking from real life experience not misinformed hill billy logic. Go buy a .30-06
     
  10. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Quote..."to buy something else...[is] not really [an] option". It is for a kid that probably A) Doesn't have a great deal of experience and B) Is not very recoil tolerant...in which case .30-06 does not fit the bill. :)
     
  11. gatorjames85

    gatorjames85 Member

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    I would definitely go with the .223. I have done real well with fast, light bullets on deer.
     
  12. Visionz45

    Visionz45 Member

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    I guess I remember the deer being rather small down south. They should be hunted with a handicap, kind of like golf. My 13yo nephew hits paper chinet plates every time at the 100 line with my model 70 - '06. Maybe he's just a tough kid.
     
  13. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    If you are trying to teach the kid to hunt, I would choose the .30 carbine. The reason I would choose that one is because it is the closest to a hunting rifle of the two. The AR with the pistol grip and the straight stock is just so different from most hunting rifles that I would not choose it to teach a new hunter.
     
  14. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    How would there be anything wrong with teaching off the AR platform?
     
  15. dubbleA

    dubbleA Member

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    No doubt about it, the 223.

    Shot placement is key of couse and given accuracy requirements, the run of the mill AR will shoot circles around a M1 carbine.

    You did not mention whether or not if these wer scoped or not:confused:
     
  16. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I ran the numbers through ballistic software and the energy and TKO value for the two are as follows (for two Remington Soft Point loads...had them handy). I will run the numbers for other loads at the OPs request provided the bullet weight (in grains) and the velocity (in fps).

    .223Rem Soft Point (55gr @ 3240fps): Muzzle Energy=1282 ft/lb with 5.68 TKO 100yd Energy=921 ft/lb with 4.81 TKO

    .30Carbine Soft Point (110gr @ 1990fps): Muzzle Energy=967 ft/lb with 9.63 TKO 100yd Energy=600 ft/lb with 7.58 TKO

    I think the TKO value is a better analog than the sheer energy...but like I said no experience with either. :)
     
  17. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    inside 100m, i'd do the carbine, after that, it just drops too much, too slow, and loses energy fast.
     
  18. Visionz45

    Visionz45 Member

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    Does anyone have a minimum TKO recommended for deer?
     
  19. trstafford

    trstafford Member

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  20. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    There is no such recognized value...and TKO is not a magical number that provides the actual "real-world" killing value of a particular cartridge...just a little better than using the energy values according to most experts. Ideally I would want something that has at least a value of 8 (relative to a .243 Win. at 200yds) at the desired maximum range. For instance a .260Rem. has a more energy than the average .45-70...but which would you choose for the charging bear? As you might imagine the .45-70 has a much better TKO...about 40 vs. 14.2 from a .260 at muzzle. :)
     
  21. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Hey, this is an interesting thread. Glad to find it.

    I'll just read for a while. May have some ideas later.

    Why? Well, I own a .30-30, and am planning to add an AR.

    I'm also researching light bullets for the .30.
     
  22. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    "I guess I remember the deer being rather small down south"-Visionz45. Now that's funny right there,I don't care who you are! I have an M1 carbine,an AR-15 and also a Stevens Model 200 in .223 Rem. (I would choose the Stevens for deer with 64gr.soft points.). As long as the deer are under 150lbs and within 100 yards,you're good to go with either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  23. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    I'd go .223, but don't take "quartering-toward" shots, just broadside and quartering away. Also don't take STEEPLY quartering away.
     
  24. bernie

    bernie Member

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    I appreciate the replies so far, the deer will not be any larger than 150 pounds. He will also be shooting open sights. My budget does not allow purchase of another rifle, and I can borrow the carbine and I own an AR. I have even thougt about selling the AR and buying a carbine.
     
  25. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    M1 Carbines are just plain fun, point well, and get ragged on undeservedly for lacking stopping power (generally when regarding an HD situation). It is a fine rifle and can be had a pretty decent prices. :)
     
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