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Which Would You Choose, Italy or India-made Repros?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Al LaVodka, Jun 10, 2010.

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Which Would You Choose, Italy (Pedersoli) or India-made Black Powder Reproductions!?

Poll closed Jul 25, 2010.
  1. I'd buy an India-made black powder reproduction musket as they're better quality than a Pedersoli.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. I'd buy India-made 'cause they're as good as a Pedersoli, for the money.

    6.1%
  3. I'd buy India-made over a Pedersoli because they are affordable and better than nothing.

    6.1%
  4. I'd buy a Pedersoli black powder reproduction musket as they're better quality than an India-made.

    28.6%
  5. I'd pay for a Pedersoli over an India-made as they're better quality and worth it.

    53.1%
  6. I'd buy a Pedersoli over an India-made because I can comfortably afford them.

    6.1%
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  1. Al LaVodka

    Al LaVodka member

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    Do you prefer Italian, namely Pedersoli, or Indian made black powder reproductions, and why?
    Al
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  2. Al LaVodka

    Al LaVodka member

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    Obvious to me: Pedersolis are more expensive but the quality is so much better and worth a wait and the price. They really are useable works of art to me...
    Al
     
  3. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    "Quality" is a pretty subjective term. I'd sum up the pros and cons as follows:

    Pedersoli
    +Excellent fit and finish
    +Excellent accuracy
    +Very thoroughly proof tested
    +Replacement parts available
    -Expensive

    India
    +Being handmade is good for historical accuracy
    +Cheap
    -Good luck getting replacement parts
    -I've never seen an Indian gun with a rifled barrel, smoothbores only
    -Fit and finish range from acceptable, to "interesting," to atrocious (a good importer will weed out the really bad ones)
    -Not proof tested
    -Some importers don't drill a flash hole, leaving that to the end user--those importers also tend not to carry caplocks

    Really depends on the same factors as selecting any other gun. What you want to shoot, how far you want to shoot it from, and how much you want to spend.

    IMO, the main reasons to get an Indian gun would be for re-enacting, or for a very cheap "beater" fowling piece. For medium or large game on a tight budget, though, a cheap in-line would be better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  4. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Shooting the India made guns puts your life at risk. Would not own one.
     
  5. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    Personally, I would not shoot anything made in India.


    I like Indian Food, Tea, Textiles, though...


    If a Sikh would own and shoot it, well, then I would too, trusting his opinion...otherwise, "nope".
     
  6. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I've never been one to believe that a person needs to spend a lot of money to enjoy a wide variety of muzzle loading guns.
    And I've read enough to know that the performance of even some of the most expensive muskets without sights doesn't really appeal to me and isn't something that I'm willing to invest a lot of money in.
    Everyone has their own priorities when it comes to the shooting sports.
    Since I already have a .50 smooth rifle and shotguns, I'd rather not spend too much on a musket if any money at all. Their calibers are simply too large for me to enjoy shooting solid projectiles out of. So I'd just buy a less expensive Indian made gun of a decent known quality if anything at all.
    And my decision would have nothing to do with judging Pedersoli quality at all. It would simply be based on what I think would be the best value for the least amount of money to get a gun at a price that I probably wouldn't even consider buying otherwise. And that's why I wouldn't choose the poll option saying that an Indian made gun is better than nothing.
    Indian made guns are fine guns that to me simply represent the best value for the least amount of money spent. Especially if it was a unique model that I really liked enough to buy.
    I'll make this one analogy about how nearly everyone in the USA has a car whether it's a Cadillac, a Volkswagon, a truck or an antique. The important thing is that every car on the road will function to take a person from point A to point B. So in that respect, no matter which make that anyone drives, each car on the road is relatively equal since every car serves to give each and every American equal mobility on our common roadways. All of their wheels simply turn alike. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2010
  7. Rock Island

    Rock Island Member

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    I buy whatever strikes my fancy, I own both Indian and Italian made repops as well as a couple of Japanese ones. I have had no problems with any of the Indian made muskets, or the Italian ones, the Japanese pistols had soft frizzens. I have bought muskets from Pedersoli, and MVTco, Pete over at MVTco Middlesex Village Trading Company will take care of you if you drop him a line, great guy and they stand behind what they sell. The Indian guns are not fancy, they are just guns, but the four I have from MVT work, frizzens spark every time, no safety issues, and the build quality is good. My Pedersoli 1816 looks like it was made in a modern factory by machines, perfect, and it's covered in Italian proofs and other markings that might not be wanted by the reenactor. MVT's "ships carbine" is a lot of fun, it's a short Bess, I have 500+ rounds through it with the frizzen still sparking fine.
     
  8. Al LaVodka

    Al LaVodka member

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    Your car analogy is counter-intuitive to me. Their wheels do not turn alike.

    Disposable Yugos went over like a lead balloon, and rightfully so. Try buying a new Citroen. Look at the history of the American auto industry over the last few decades vs. a Honda and then Toyota -- squandered. We don't really buy Cadillacs today for a reason -- instead we buy Lexus', Audi's, BMW's and Benz's for top quality and the recognition that accompanies the choice. Some buy Chevy's 'cause they are bright and shiny, are good enough to make do, are affordable (albeit due to government bailouts and continuing subsidies to GM), and they have a tax-funded warranty and politically directed big ad agency campaigns... Not always the best foundations for a purchase. I know Stalin said that perfect is the enemy of good-enough. But oftimes, good-enough really isn't. Be careful and safe: it could just be cheap! You gonna buy one of these too?

    "According to a USA Today report, GM officials have told members of Congress that the company planned to import 17,335 Chinese-made vehicles starting in 2011, growing to 51,546 vehicles in 2014."

    Al
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2010
  9. Afy

    Afy Member

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    I know for a fact that the Indian Made muskets are made for hanging on a wall and not shooting. I wouldnt want to try shooting any of them..
     
  10. Pancho

    Pancho Member

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    I've never entertained buying an Indian made gun. I do have a question though. Are the Indian made guns built in a factory or is it a cottage industry? If it is a cottage industry I wouldn't expect much out of them one gun could be a shooter the next could be a wall hanger. I don't have any use for a wall hanger because my shooters look great on the wall too.
     
  11. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    GAD the amount of misinformation is ASTOUNDING!

    Based on what information? I know of ONE and only one that had a barrel failure. The failure would've caused an Italion or Japanese musket barrel to rupture as well. The breech plug held, the barrel split above the breech.


    Well there are three that are made; they are NOT the same parts from the same houses, assembled and sold by different importers. Two are made to shoot, and do quite well. What is this "fact" of which you speak?

    No luck needed. On March 13th of this year I inquired about parts in stock..., here is the reply from only one of the three distributors of musket with Indian parts, to which I enquired, as I am stocking up on parts that the privates break, wear out, or lose in the grass when cleaning. I did not inquire about frizzens as they tend to be pricey, and not something the reenactors can afford at the drop of a hat at an event...,

    Top jaw screws for cock (Bess and Charleville) We have these in stock for both the Bess & the french.
    Tops for the jaws for the cock. We have the Bess top jaws in stock.
    Lock Screws, We have the Bess and Charleville screws n stock.
    Four main lock springs Bess; We have these in stock.
    Frizzen springs Bess; we have these in stock
    Frizzen spring screws, Bess; We have these in stock
    Fizzen springs Charleville; we have these in stock
    Four frizzen spring screws, Charleville; We have these in stock

    So..., exactly what parts are tough to find?

    YES I think that the Italian made gus have better wood to metal fit. The Indian musket wood to metal fit isn't terrible, simply not as sharp as the Italian. The wood on both muskets is wrong. Sorry, if it ain't English walnut..., it's wrong.

    Cosmetically, the Indian guns from at least one maker are closer copies to an original 1st Model King's musket, than the Italian is to a 2nd Model King's musket, no matter how good the wood to metal fit. When I bought my Pedersolies, they had competative prices, and the purchase made sense. That was twenty years ago in 1990, and the only Bess on the market were 2nd Models. Today, as I have maintained in another thread, I am not convinced that 50% - 100% more money justifies the purchase of a gun simply based on wood to metal fit.

    LD
     
  12. JNewell

    JNewell Member

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    To grossly over-generalize based on a lot of experience:

    Italy: better made from better materials but not necessarily the best-functioning

    Japan: best shooters but often not equal to best Italian repros (such as Pedersoli)

    India: not worth the effort to drill out the vent.

    Nomex on.
     
  13. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    I have seen pictures of 4 blown barrels on Indian Bess muskets. Also, in an effort to get an indian made gun approved for N-SSA use, a friend sent the barel to a proof house to have it proved. He was refused by the proof house because of the type tubing used in the barrel. Same friend bought custom barrel for the gun and got approval. Subsequent trouble with lock was trouble over and over.

    I have looked at dozens of the India guns. Yet to see one that I thought would hold up to regular shooting.
     
  14. Afy

    Afy Member

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    Loyalist dave:
    1. I actually know one 'manufacturer' of the Indian made guns based out of rajasthan.
    2. The guns are made ina cottage industry setting and are 'exported' as decorative items. Not meant for shooting.
    3. I am from India and am intimately familliar with the manufacturing process, since I personally exported a bunch of the muskets to Europe a long time ago. The barrels were more pweter than steel.
    At the end of the day, its a free world (largely) and one is free to do what they want. If you think the Indian made muskets are safe to shoot.. sure go ahead.
    If you want to import them in bulk let me know. End of story. :cheers:
     
  15. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    There is a huge difference between decorative use guns sold to folks in Europe, and the guns sold in the United States. Anybody care to identify when and where and what?

    I am sure those guns are as you say. Since folks refuse to identifiy the defective brands, I will identify those of which I am speaking..., Loyalist Arms and MVTC both make shooting guns. LA will provide information to you to fire a test load if you wish to test the strength of the barrel yourself. I have, they work fine. It is not a question of "think" it is a question of "know".

    IF they were barrels constructed as you say, they would've exploded into bits, but did not, during the test. They come ready to fire, they do not need to be converted from non-firing to firing.

    LD
     
  16. Afy

    Afy Member

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    Like I said its a free world. You want to shoot them.. go ahead. I will not.. my body parts do not grow back.
    BTW: I couldnt find Indian muskets on Loyalist Arms, and MVTC returns Miami Valley Transport Club.
     
  17. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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  18. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Until they are proofed barrels and can be shipped IN ONE PIECE with the vents drilled, stay away from them because what they are saying is this:

    WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THESE BARRELS WILL NOT BLOW UP SO THEY ARE NOT FOR SHOOTING EXCEPT AT YOUR OWN RISK.

    Friend's gun was one of those that was shipped in two boxes to get around US laws. Those are the ones I think you advocates are saying are okay to shoot. If they were okay to shoot, the proof house would have tested them. He also has spent over $200. and bunch of hours trying to get the lock to be consistent. We have had to shim and put bushings in the lock to get any consistency. The lock wore because of soft metal. Parts were also soft and had to be hardened.

    To each his own. If you want to take the risk, go ahead. Just don't expect to be able to sue anyone for your injuries.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2010
  19. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Italian.
     
  20. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    For general info.

    From MTVC web site:

    Frequently Asked Questions


    #4: Is there a warranty?
    A: Yes. We warranty the locks against breakage under normal operating conditions.


    Note they do not warranty the barrels.

    Loyalist Arms recommend you proof the barrels on their web site. No warranty on the barrels.

    For what it is worth.
     
  21. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Middlesex Village does offer to proof test their barrels to a higher standard than Pedersoli does under Italian law for a $50 fee. Which of the American [semi-custom] gun makers or barrel makers offers to proof test their barrels and which ones don't? :rolleyes:

     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  22. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Not checked recently, but last time I checked, European BP ML rifles/muskets were proofed at 3 times max charge recommended, not 130%. 130% is what is standard for cartridge firearms and BP revolvers. The reason not higher % is that is what is about the max charge for the revolvers and cartridges due to space limits. More just will not fit.

    I will check up on this.

    Yes I know you can put hotter powders in the cartridges, but 1., most folks use factory loads and 2. Folks that reload usually are smart enough to use appropriate powders. The occassional idiots who violate this premise usually leave enough evidence to prove their stupidity.
     
  23. hawkeye74

    hawkeye74 Member

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    Early research not promising on current standards for Europe BP weapons.

    Seems that Europe is letting this area lapse a bit. The laws and treaties address modern guns and not the BP weapons. The standard is 130% for Smokeless powder guns. Those in power when they negotiated their treaties to govern the united Europe, addressed only smokeless, not BP guns and had language that abrogated all existing laws on proofing in the individual countries. This is how CVA got away with all of the bad barrels through the "proofing process" The only legal standard is 130%.

    From what I have found out so far, reputable dealers and makers are holding to the old standards which were 3 times max recommended charge. For muskets, that is about 180 grains. This is easily enough to pass the legal standards.

    If I find out more, I'll post. Anyone who wants to help is welcome.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  24. rusty from italy

    rusty from italy Member

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    [​IMG][/IMG]

    Bad reloader are always at work:(
    Good notice is the guy that stripped this garand is still alive.
    Proof house can't prevent accident like this.
    Many people here try to understand from italian proof house how they test black powder arms, but nobody get a explicative answer, my be it's a top secret:)
    Most probably they don't give information for a safety reason:)
    For modern smokeless is 130% of maximum pressure.
    ciao
    Rusty
     
  25. Ratdog68

    Ratdog68 Member

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    Holy Chit !!!! That woud be unsettling !!
     
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