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White female officers more likely to use deadly force.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jsalcedo, Mar 16, 2005.

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  1. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    By Ann Coulter

    How many people have to die before the country stops humoring feminists? Last week, a defendant in a rape case, Brian Nichols, wrested a gun from a female deputy in an Atlanta courthouse and went on a murderous rampage. Liberals have proffered every possible explanation for this breakdown in security except the giant elephant in the room -- who undoubtedly has an eating disorder and would appreciate a little support vis-a-vis her negative body image.


    The New York Times said the problem was not enough government spending on courthouse security ("Budgets Can Affect Safety Inside Many Courthouses"). Yes, it was tax-cuts-for-the-rich that somehow enabled a 200-pound former linebacker to take a gun from a 5-foot-tall grandmother.


    Atlanta court officials dispensed with any spending issues the next time Nichols entered the courtroom when he was escorted by 17 guards and two police helicopters. He looked like P. Diddy showing up for a casual dinner party.


    I think I have an idea that would save money and lives: Have large men escort violent criminals. Admittedly, this approach would risk another wave of nausea and vomiting by female professors at Harvard. But there are also advantages to not pretending women are as strong as men, such as fewer dead people. Even a female math professor at Harvard should be able to run the numbers on this one.


    Of course, it's suspiciously difficult to find any hard data about the performance of female cops. Not as hard as finding the study showing New Jersey state troopers aren't racist, but still pretty hard to find.


    Mostly what you find on Lexis-Nexis are news stories quoting police chiefs who have been browbeaten into submission, all uttering the identical mantra after every public safety disaster involving a girl cop. It seems that female officers compensate for a lack of strength with "other" abilities, such as cooperation, empathy and intuition.


    There are lots of passing references to "studies" of uncertain provenance, but which always sound uncannily like a press release from the Feminist Majority Foundation. (Or maybe it was The Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, which recently released a study claiming that despite Memogate, "Fahrenheit 911," the Richard Clarke show and the jihad against the Swift Boat Veterans, the press is being soft on Bush.)


    The anonymous "studies" about female officers invariably demonstrate that women make excellent cops -- even better cops than men! One such study cited an episode of "She's the Sheriff," starring Suzanne Somers.


    A 1993 news article in the Los Angeles Times, for example, referred to a "study" -- cited by an ACLU attorney -- allegedly proving that "female officers are more effective at making arrests without employing force because they are better at de-escalating confrontations with suspects." No, you can't see the study or have the name of the organization that performed it, and why would you ask?


    There are roughly 118 million men in this country who would take exception to that notion. I wonder if women officers "de-escalate" by mentioning how much more money their last suspect made.


    These aren't unascertainable facts, like Pinch Sulzberger's SAT scores. The U.S. Department of Justice (news - web sites) regularly performs comprehensive surveys of state and local law enforcement agencies, collected in volumes called "Law Enforcement Management and Administrative Statistics."


    The inestimable economist John Lott has looked at the actual data. (And I'll give you the citation! John R. Lott Jr., "Does a Helping Hand Put Others at Risk? Affirmative Action, Police Departments and Crime," Economic Inquiry, April 1, 2000.)


    It turns out that, far from "de-escalating force" through their superior listening skills, female law enforcement officers vastly are more likely to shoot civilians than their male counterparts. (Especially when perps won't reveal where they bought a particularly darling pair of shoes.)


    Unable to use intermediate force, like a bop on the nose, female officers quickly go to fatal force. According to Lott's analysis, each 1 percent increase in the number of white female officers in a police force increases the number of shootings of civilians by 2.7 percent.


    Adding males to a police force decreases the number of civilians accidentally shot by police. Adding black males decreases civilian shootings by police even more. By contrast, adding white female officers increases accidental shootings. (And for my Handgun Control Inc. readers: Private citizens are much less likely to accidentally shoot someone than are the police, presumably because they do not have to approach the suspect and make an arrest.)


    In addition to accidentally shooting people, female law enforcement officers are also more likely to be assaulted than male officers -- as the whole country saw in Atlanta last week. Lott says: "Increasing the number of female officers by 1 percentage point appears to increase the number of assaults on police by 15 percent to 19 percent."


    In addition to the obvious explanations for why female cops are more likely to be assaulted and to accidentally shoot people -- such as that our society encourages girls to play with dolls -- there is also the fact that women are smaller and weaker than men.





    In a study of public safety officers -- not even the general population -- female officers were found to have 32 percent to 56 percent less upper body strength and 18 percent to 45 percent less lower body strength than male officers -- although their outfits were 43 percent more coordinated. (Here's the cite! Frank J. Landy, "Alternatives to Chronological Age in Determining Standards of Suitability for Public Safety Jobs," Technical Report, Vol. 1, Jan. 31, 1992.)

    Another study I've devised involves asking a woman to open a jar of pickles.

    There is also the telling fact that feminists demand that strength tests be watered down so that women can pass them. Feminists simultaneously demand that no one suggest women are not as strong as men and then turn around and demand that all the strength tests be changed. It's one thing to waste everyone's time by allowing women to try out for police and fire departments under the same tests given to men. It's quite another to demand that the tests be brawned-down so no one ever has to tell female Harvard professors that women aren't as strong as men.

    Acknowledging reality wouldn't be all bad for women. For one thing, they won't have to confront violent felons on methamphetamine. So that's good. Also, while a sane world would not employ 5-foot-tall grandmothers as law enforcement officers, a sane world would also not give full body-cavity searches to 5-foot-tall grandmothers at airports.


    article
     
  2. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Whoa there, buddy, that sounds dangerously like common sense.

    I personally dont get why someone with a gun (regardless of size) was anywhere near an unrestrained violent prisoner. The guy with the gun should always be behind and beyond arms reach. Or is this just crazy talk?

    I found the fact that black male police officers reduce civilian shootings even more to be interesting. That actually sounds like an area where some affirmative action might benefit the public at large.

    Didnt find the "quicker escalation to lethal force" finding to be much of a surprise. Most female police officers arent really intimidating in a Moses Hightower 8ft tall black man kind of way. Or even in a 5'10" I-work-out-a-bit-and-have-truncheon sort of way. Women just arent tall, muscular or heavy enough to be physically intimidating to most men. Its a fact of human existance. I wouldnt mess with a 6 foot tall muscular Russian woman tho, or a 300 lb jamacain woman lol beatdown.
     
  3. kikilee

    kikilee Member

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    jsalcedo - I see you have embraced the spirit of "Political Correctness"

    Best be careful, lest you open the door for someone of the fairer sex.

    Did I just say that................................?
     
  4. sfhogman

    sfhogman Member

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    Well written!
    I shall look for your posts in the future, sir.

    Jeff
     
  5. Abby

    Abby Member

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    I'm going to let the whole "female cops" things go...no need for the new member to be impolite. :D

    HOWEVER - I don't think we should pass off the whole Atlanta thing as the fault of having a female deputy on duty. This was a large, violent, desperate guy. Who wasn't handcuffed [sound of me thumping my head on the desk]. So when he wrestled the gun from the deputy, and there was NO ONE WATCHING on the CCTV monitors, I think it would have taken a very large and vary alert male deputy to stop him (or maybe just one very small very petite chick watching that monitor).

    And not all men are very large and very alert, let's remember.

    However, in a perfect world, I'da had this dude shackled at the hands and feet and flanked by a couple of the biggest bubbas I could find. That's just me.
     
  6. DSRUPTV

    DSRUPTV Member

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    That is a well written article with some good points. I can vouch for the fact that North Carolina physical standards are very low during B.L.E.T. There is a course called the POPAT (Police Officers Physical Abilities Test) that students run involving running, push-ups, sit-ups, stairs, a weighted door, a culvert, and dragging a dummy. The time limit is 7mins. and 20 secs. I was able to finish the course in 3 mins. and 47 secs. I feel that it is far too easy to pass and the time limit should be dropped. Incidentally this would have cut a number of males from my class that I think need to be in better shape to be a rookie officer.

    I would also like to point out that on more than one occaision I have been told female officers are much better at dealing with cases involving children and sexual assault victims.

    Edited to say: No one officer should ever escort a violent criminal alone no matter the officer's size, strength, gender, or race in anything less that cuffs behind the back.
     
  7. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    I like it that Ann Coulter is not afraid of the PC police.

    Although kooky and abrasive at times I'm glad she is on our side.
     
  8. RKCheung

    RKCheung Member

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    BTW, the female deputy did not have a gun on her. Nichols over-powered her and took her key to a locked-box where the gun was.
     
  9. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I hate it—just plain old-fashioned hate it, I tell you!—when new members show up with full measures of common sense. They just put us old-timers to shame.

    Seriously: heavy duty hand cuffs behind the back and someone watching the closed circuit television monitors were all the security measures that were actually needed. Ordinary hand cuffs can be broken by exceptionally strong individuals, but the serious duty models are considerably stronger. A man hand-cuffed behind his back can duck his head and butt someone and do serious damage, but a.) it still would have been all but impossible for him to take the deputy's gun; b.) it's almost impossible to fire a gun accurately while hand-cuffed behind one's back, and c.) the people responsible for monitoring the television cameras ought to have been able to intervene in P.D.Q. order.

    Once again, management failed to manage.
     
  10. DelayedReaction

    DelayedReaction Member

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    While I doubt a female cop is as able to physically restrain me as a male cop (I'm 6'9"), I don't see that being a reason to disparage them. This is more an example of utterly idiotic procedural error (it wouldn't have mattered if the cop was male or female given the weight difference) than a gender issue.

    RKCheung, where'd you get that info?
     
  11. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    A friend of my dad's worked as a bouncer at a bar for a short time. This guy was huge--over 6'-5" and with a physique to match--a real monster.

    He tried to get a friend of his hired on. His friend was real tough--a martial arts expert and physically very strong--but small. The manager told him that was out of the question. He said: "I don't want someone who can fight, I want someone who is so physically imposing that no one WANTS to fight him. Fighting tears the place up and opens me up to lawsuits. No little guys no matter how tough they are."

    Obviously you can't take that to the extreme and hire big guys even if they are inept, but there is inescapable logic in that statement. Just as in Ms. Coulter's article and Lott's research.

    I work at a very large facility that has it's own small fire department for various reasons. One of the "firemen" is a very small woman--maybe 4'-10" or 4'-11". Not five feet unless I'm badly mistaken. I've wondered for years what is going to happen if there's an emergency and she's the first one on the scene. I'd hate to die because she can't drag my 230lb carcass out of a smoke-filled building.

    I guess my imaginary scenario isn't nearly as bad as real life--in this case, it cost four people their lives.

    A paper in Tyler actually published an article saying that one cause of the killings was the fact that a 51 year old 5' woman is no match for a 200lb 6'-1" college linebacker. Pretty bold talk in this day and age, and pretty sad that four people had to die before it could even be said without a subsequent lynching.
     
  12. Vernal45

    Vernal45 member

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    Well said Ann Coulter......I was waiting for someone to point out the elephant in the room, part of its name is Affirmative Action. And on the A$$ end is bad, very bad management from the DA on down.
     
  13. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    Even if Ann's column isn't applicable for the Atlanta court situation, it is perfectly valid for street patrol, which is probably where most assaults are going to take place.
     
  14. uvakat

    uvakat Member

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    JohnKSa... I would be careful of saying that about the female firefighter if I were you... I guess I differ from you guys. I know even at 5'4 I'm a lot stronger then I look. I will admit that in brute strength I will never be able to beat a guy... or as I say to people even a weak as heck 100 lb male will be able to overpower me, but I will give due credit when it is due. Some of the female cops that I've met scare me and intimidate me more then most of the males ones. I'm not easy to intimidate either. and hey put me in turnout gear... I bet I can hull your carcuss out of the fire just don't ask me to hull it up the stairs (memories of moving *shrudders*) :p And there should never be just one cop accompaning an unrestrained offender... I don't care male or female.
     
  15. cookekdjr

    cookekdjr Member

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    As always, Ann Coulter starts out with a lie or just plain ignorance:
    Last week, a defendant in a rape case, Brian Nichols, wrested a gun from a female deputy in an Atlanta courthouse and went on a murderous rampage
    Fulton County Deputy Cynthia Hall did not have a weapon when Mr. Nichols began his three minute struggle with her. Only after the struggle had ended did Nichols take Hall's keys. He then took the keys to a lock box, where he got Hall's weapon, returned to her unconscious body, and shot her in the head.
    In the last month, two of my offices cases have been featured on Fox News. I have watched some of their coverage. I have noticed two things:

    1. Fox News commentators often deliberatly lie to further their agenda. By lie, I do not mean give a conservative slant on a story, or get confused about the facts. I mean a) they have access to the facts and know them and b) they present something else entirely as the facts in order to further an agenda that does not include the truth.
    2. Fox News commentators are often sloppy and do not engage in even remedial research. I believe that is the case with Coulter's comments here, but I have seen lying on Fox so much, I am not sure.

    Please understand that my friends and co-workers have provided the facts to FOX for specific stories. I have seen this happen.
    Just thought y'all might like to know.
    David
     
  16. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Ann Coulter. :rolleyes:

    Another Motion to Change the Facts, Ann? Don't you think people will catch on to your ranting based on lies, Ann? :scrutiny:
     
  17. Firethorn

    Firethorn Member

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    Considering the number of people on this forum who assumed the gun was on the deputy, and the number of news sources that didn't contradict this, I think that it was a reasonable mistake.

    After all, every courthouse I've had reason to step into has had armed bailiffs. Of course, I haven't stepped into the courts much, but courthouses for various reasons.
     
  18. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    As long as it's against the law (or the rules, or the regs, or whatever it was the morning paper said) for defendants in that courthouse to be brought into the courtroom in cuffs and/or shackles they're going to have a potential problem on their hands and I don't care how many people they assign to walk 'em in.

    John
     
  19. GoRon

    GoRon Member

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    The end result was the same.

    As far as the "wresting the gun from a female deputy" part, that was widely reported on many different news outlets.

    I also heard about the gun locker the next day, on Fox FWIW.

    If you are trying to cut costs by using one deputy to escort a prisoner, at least make it the biggest and toughest deputy you have, using restraints might be a good idea also.
     
  20. CletusFudd

    CletusFudd Member

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    Size matters

    "He tried to get a friend of his hired on. His friend was real tough--a martial arts expert and physically very strong--but small. The manager told him that was out of the question. He said: "I don't want someone who can fight, I want someone who is so physically imposing that no one WANTS to fight him. Fighting tears the place up and opens me up to lawsuits. No little guys no matter how tough they are."

    After I got out of the Navy I made extra money while going to school by being a bouncer. I'm 6'4" and about 220 and my partner was a large guy also. We used to go to another after hours club after ours closed that was pretty rough and got to know the bouncer there. The guy was about 5'10" and wiry but was one of the toughest sob's I've ever seen. What he didn't have in weight he made up for with a 5 cell maglite. I think a lot of things are decided by determination and just plain old meaness.
     
  21. cookekdjr

    cookekdjr Member

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    As far as the "wresting the gun from a female deputy" part, that was widely reported on many different news outlets.

    I also heard about the gun locker the next day, on Fox FWIW

    Which brings us back to my point about Fox commentators lying and/or failing to do basic research. If Fox News was correctly reporting the gunlocker thing, then their commentators on the news have no excuse for getting it wrong.
    Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I've always thought you should know the facts before you comment on them. Of course, there's knowing the truth and then there's speaking the truth...
     
  22. WT

    WT Member

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    Why would I want to wrestle with somebody? If I were that big I would just sucker punch the female deputy. Doesn't appear that she was expecting trouble. BANG! One shot. "To the moon, Alice."

    That said, if he had landed a haymaker on an unsuspecting male deputy, I doubt there would be a different ending. We'd still have a lot of dead people.

    I can't fault the deputy. Something else went on we don't know about.
     
  23. migoi

    migoi Member

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    Wow,

    "Fulton County Deputy Cynthia Hall did not have a weapon when Mr. Nichols began his three minute struggle with her."

    Sounds like Grandma held her own. Three minutes is an eternity when in hand to hand combat with a physically superior force. Where was her backup? Seems to me if the police cannot respond in less than three minutes in a courthouse then us citizens on the street can't really expect any sort of timeliness at all.

    Ms. Coulter certainly has some valid points in her article but then she throws in nonsense such as "(Especially when perps won't reveal where they bought a particularly darling pair of shoes.)" and her credibility goes way south. If there is such overwhelming validity in her thesis why resort to this type of attack?

    migoi
     
  24. BenW

    BenW Member

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    Pretty much what Abby said. Regardless of gender, having a single small person guard a very large, very violent criminal is pretty stupid. And authorities there didn't help themselves explanation-wise by going from a single guard the first time to NINETEEN the second time.

    This is the first I've heard of the lockbox thing. If possible, it makes this guy more evil and disgusting. Shooting the deputy after wrestling for her gun is one disgusting thing. Getting a gun after disabling her and then going back to shoot her in the head is simply repulsive.
     
  25. Mikul

    Mikul Member

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    My neice is a police officer. She's 5'5" and 95 pounds after dinner. She is constantly telling me about how she pulled a gun on some guy. She can be overpowered by a cordless drill. No wonder she always pulls he gun. The fact that she enjoys it doesn't help. She has no business being a police officer.
     
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