Who and what will he rob next?

[St. Gunner]

In another thread someone mentioned forking over $80 to an armed robber and said if he'd been packing he would have made the same call. In his particular case the guy had the drop on him and probably not much could have been done until the money was handed over and the thug turned his back on him(I don't want to discuss the ethics of that sentence, some places it would be legal, others not).

Now we each have to make our own decisions on how we handle things. I think alot of times our mindset and type of personality determine the outcome of situations. But the problem I have always had with this type of capitulation to armed robbery is, "Who is next, and what if they resist without proper means to do so?" $80 may not be much for one person, but for someone else it might mean the difference in paying the heating bill or freezing to death.

I realize you can't pack in Illinois, so in this situation you did all you probably could. We won't delve into did he call the police, give a description to them, or in some way mark the guy for the police to find.

Our little town has been invaded by homes for the mentally lacking, problem is most aren't mentally lacking at all, they found a way to have the government pay for their room and board and get a check every month to spend. Well it has led to lots of begging and such. But what happened was they became forceful about it, they realized if they used the phrases like, "Give me some F-ing money for a coke." After having slipped up behind you, that people just chunked money their way.

So one morning not long ago they made that statement and the young lady didn't happen to have any change or cash to hand them. So this large man in his 30's proceeded to beat her for awhile.

Now to my way of thinking, capitulation led to the predator stepping up to this level. What if the first time it happened somebody had said, "NO".

Well skip to my wife...

She went to wash the car one day and was confronted by this same man, she handed over a dollar. She got caught not paying attention and he snuck up on her and she couldn't get away. I got pretty irate that she gave him the dollar, we'd discussed the situation in town and i'd asked her to wash her vehicle at a carwash on the opposite side of town from where this guy and his buddies hang out. First rule is avoid the conflict in the first place right? Well a few days later she was sitting in line at a gas station and he saw her and decided to play it again. Cept she didn't have any cash on hand, or even much change(.20 cents) she gave that to him and he started kicking the car and screaming and cussing. She'd made herself a target and others like her by her actions.

Now a few weeks later this guy decided to try it one morning on me about 5am as I fueled up. I saw him coming and unsnapped my pitbull in the back of the pick-up. He got out "Give me..." and it all got cut off by my friend greeting him for his loud voice. And he got to stare at the business end of a 12 gauge pump gun that rides in the front seat of the truck all the time.

Now if he'd met me first when this all started would he have ever been started on others? I don't know, I have my theory that he wouldn't have. But instead he tends to now prey on unsuspecting women. My wife has strict instructions to pepper spray him if he comes within range of her. I have told this to the local police chief and he concurs it is advisable.

I guess I said all that to say this...

By our striving to always be passive do we often strengthen the criminals resolve and cause a larger more dangerous predator to deal with later?

 

[Old Fuff]

I think you are right, but considering where you are political correctness and left-wing attitudes may have to be taken into consideration. They are the source of this "don't fight back, give the poor thug whatever he wants," mode of thinking. So, if you did what you want to do, would a jury in your area see things the same way you do? Obviously there are other considerations, but this is one you should think about.

Now in rural Arizona where I am there wouldn't be any question. By now the individual in question would have moved on for his health - if he could still move.

 

[Zundfolge]

So one morning not long ago they made that statement and the young lady didn't happen to have any change or cash to hand them. So this large man in his 30's proceeded to beat her for awhile...She went to wash the car one day and was confronted by this same man...
Now a few weeks later this guy decided to try it one morning on me... My wife has strict instructions to pepper spray him if he comes within range of her. I have told this to the local police chief and he concurs it is advisable.

Why in H-E-double hockey sticks is this guy still on the streets?!

He should be locked up ... assault and battery on a woman followed by a pattern of harassing the community ... you're local police chief needs to get on the stick here.

Maybe time for a good old fashioned march in the streets (maybe with pitchforks and clubs) to get this guy removed from the community.

 

[answerguy]

I realize you can't pack in Illinois,

Odd, I just came back from visiting in Illinois and noticed that my pistol didn't disappear from it's holster as I crossed the state line. YMMV

 

[zogorion]

To answer your question in short, yes. The more vile acts a given criminal gets away with, the more brazen he will become and begin to commit more, and more violent acts. The only real solution to this problem is to ensure fewer criminals get away with the crimes they intend to perpitrate. The only way we can do this is through education. Sounds weird huh? Well I ain't talkin about grade school, I'm talkin about educating ourselves, our loved ones, and anyone who will listen about the threats that we face every minute of everyday. I carry all the time, or at least all the time I can, since I work at a military base, I obviously can't carry to work. I also encourage all of my friends and family to carry. Criminals have an ultimate refuge of higher-learning where they can spend countless hours devoted to the study of how to be a better criminal, it's called prison. Ordinary citizens like you, I, and our fellow High Roaders have things called jobs, which preclude us from spending that much time studying how to be better, less vulnerable, more defendable citizens. We have to educate ourselves on our own time, at our own expense, all the while, paying for our adversaries education and training. Think about it people, we are on the front lines of a war in our own backyards. We have to function as the recruiters, weapons and tactics instructors, and lobbyists if we are ever going to make any headway. Trying not to drag this out too much longer, we have to educate ourselves and others oh how not to fall victim to criminals, and if they still try to victimize us educated citizens, we need to try to make sure they don't complete their graduate degrees.
-Orion

 

[St. Gunner]

Zundfolge,

Exactly, but all they ever seem to do is haul him back to the residential mental health treatment center and drop him off. I don't know what the deal is with this, I know what the police chief wants done with him, but apparently the DA will not play ball. It'll be a situation where the straw that breaks the camels back will be somebody being killed.

I think if they are sick enough they need to have their stays paid for by the state and they need to be in a treatment center, then they need to be locked up where they can't do others harm. I did some work for one treatment center near here and the owner operator told me she knows good and well that at least a dozen of those under her care are no more crazy than she is, they just have a free ride. Room and board and $600 a month spending money, it sorta sounds like a good deal, if I wasn't married, I'd probably sign up. Heck maybe get my wife and kid commited with me, $1800 a month spending money and no bills...


Steve

 

[Moondoggie]

Maybe you should consider asking for a meeting with the DA to voice your concerns...after all, he's supposed to be a public servant who puts his pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us. If you present your "case" well, who knows, he might just see things your way.

If it turns out that he shines you on, then I'd recommend holding a press conference and starting a grassroots campaign to have him recalled or strongly and publicly oppose his reelection/reappointment. Get a letter writing campaign going to the governor.

If all else fails, you could always buy the miscreant a quart of everclear and watch him til he passes-out then transport him to the DA's neighborhood and drop him off.

There's more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[DigMe]

A meeting or a call to the DA might be a good idea...at the very least you could voice your concern for your safety and your wife's. That might help if it ever does come down to using force against him...it will be on the record.

brad cook

 

[Phil Ca]

When we first moved to the Modesto area we used to see beggers at nearly every freeway off ramp and many other intersections in town. It does not take a lot of effort to look downtrodden and forlorn. I have told my wife several times to ignore them and not give them anything. I do not believe in encouraging aberrant behavior and generally do not give in to any demand for money on the street. The police have been cracking down on these people lately.

There was a TV station that did a piece on street beggers and one guy was observed going to his vehicle several times for water and food. He drove a decent car and was scamming the public.

In downtown SF I used to see a guy sitting near a parking garage all day on a blanket. He had an artificial leg and would keep it tucked under the blanket. A guy I worked with said he saw him leave one day and a few minutes later he drove out in a nice looking van.

Here in town there is a large care facility with several people that go out every day to beg near a strip mall exit. They only have to commute a couple of blocks.

I have posted here before about the incident at the ATM in downtown SF. The bum was yelling at people to "Gimme money, gimme money!" He was intimidating the customers and scaring the females, the men were what our gobernator refers to as 'girlie men" for the most part. When my turn came and the bum demanded money I told him, "You have until the count of three to leave before I put my boot in your @$$!" He looked at me as I started my count and whined, "You don't have to be that way about it!" and turned and ran up Powell Street.

If you give these people money you are condsidered an "easy mark'. Do not give them money. I have offered to buy a sandwich for a few over the years and have never been taken up on the offer yet.

I have seen the same people in downtown Sf and over at Fisherman's Wharf on the same day. One was a woman with a kid in a stroller. I know she did not walk there and I doubt that she used the Muni System. She probably had a confederate drive her beyween "jobs".

 

[Bear Gulch]

The standard is that if they are sufficiently mentally ill to pase a danger to themselves or others that can be involuntarily hospitalized. I am ashamed that my collegues about 15 years ago began closing state hospitals for "comunity based treatment". In other words they put them on the street to beg, rob and pester until they die or become a big enough problem to go to prison.

 

[Island Beretta]

in answer to your question, a resounding YES!!!! I see it happen all the time,--- you think you are helping out the guy/gal and the one time you genuinely can't you are threatened, attacked and some killed.. unbelievable but true, that is the sad reality.. KINDNESS MEANS WEAKNESS (it is because I scare you why you have given me this money!!)

 

[redneck]

I think about this all the time. I'm in my 3rd year at OSU and the area around campus is pretty run down and swarming with homeless people and panhandlers.
In comparison to most of the other people around, I'm not an easy target. I never give money out, and I have no tolerance for the aggressive types. They get told "NO" forcefully and I don't stop walking. If they want to get in my way, I'm a pretty big guy and I'm going to move them. They never challenge me, they move quick and go on to the next mark.
It really bothers me to see other people give in to them though. They find out who can be intimidated pretty quick, they can see them coming, and they go for it everytime. There's so many bleeding hearts around that the panhandlers get whatever they want. It really bothers me how far it goes.


St. Gunner
Sorry to hear about what happened to your wife. I like how you handled the situation when the guy approached you though. I don't have any advice though, because I don't know how your going to change all the other people that feed these criminals. The same thing goes on everywhere. Just keep working on your wife like you are, and keep the pits handy

 

[fjolnirsson]

By our striving to always be passive do we often strengthen the criminals resolve and cause a larger more dangerous predator to deal with later?

YES.

 

[Shovelhead]

Kinda like feeding the bears in the national parks.

They learn where the easy pickin's are, and keep coming back wanting more.

 

[Super Trucker]

Now a few weeks later this guy decided to try it one morning on me about 5am as I fueled up. I saw him coming and unsnapped my pitbull in the back of the pick-up. He got out "Give me..." and it all got cut off by my friend greeting him for his loud voice. And he got to stare at the business end of a 12 gauge pump gun that rides in the front seat of the truck all the time.

And when the cops arrived they did? You did call the cops right?

 

[Moondoggie]

I agree with Shovelhead 1000%.....EXACTLY like feeding the bears.

Especially when you get to the part where feeding the bears not only causes/ensures their dependency on handouts, eventually somebody gets hurt/killed (bear gets too aggressive and gets shot, or human gets maimed/killed).

Of course, you can never get the bleeding hearts to see things that way.

We need more of that "Toughlove" stuff!

(Although I do think we ought to provide decent & safe care for the truly mentally ill folks.)

 

[Smoke]

Without over nit-picking situations and tactics, one must also decide if taking a life is worth 80 bucks. And what is the end cost in emotional stress and financial loss of defending oneself in court?

Each must make their own decision. Food for thought.


Smoke

 

[bcochran]

people

For Phil Cal: On the Venice boardwalk is a peculiar guy. He rollerskates and plays an electric guitar. I read in the paper that he had been caught on income tax evasion and made to pay. One day, I followed this apparently homeless guy to his CAR parked a few blocks from the beach and watched him drive off. He made some money that day too.

 

[Moondoggie]

I agree, Smoke.

Potential loss of money or property is not justification for using deadly force.

Viable threat or actual attempt to inflict physical injury generally is.

So many variables, that's where reasoning and judgement come into play.

Some of these folks you can just ignore & they'll go away. Others need a stern look. Others need a terse verbal warning. Some need a thumb in the eye, and some need to see a gun in your holster or in your hand.

 

[St. Gunner]

Supertrucker,

This is Texas, the cops are sick of this crap, I believe the quote went something like this, "I wish he'd spooked and run into the street and been smacked by a truck."

Smoke said:

Without over nit-picking situations and tactics, one must also decide if taking a life is worth 80 bucks. And what is the end cost in emotional stress and financial loss of defending oneself in court?

But Smoke this is exactly what I am talking about... So you fork over your $80, nobody can fault you for that right, it is your choice, it is just your life at stake and your money... But what happens when next week it is your elderly mother or grandmother he demands $80 from and he knocks her in the head with a pipe because she doesn't have it?

I contend that passivity breeds stronger criminals. I find the reference to feeding the bears very close to being true. But feel the better explanation would be trying to rein in an out of control overly aggresive dog. You have to take control of the situation and show the dog who is in control of the situation, you must assert dominance. On the playgrounds of our youth you didn't gain the upper hand on the bully by forking over your lunch money.

Is force always a viable option to these types of encounters? No. Because sometimes force would endanger bystanders or other innocents. But we need to realize that everytime we let these guys leave, with our money in their pockets, we place the lives of others at risk, sometimes those others will have neither the means or the skills to avoid being killed. So everytime you fork it over, think about that also.

 

[roo_ster]

I never give $$$ to panhandlers.

I tithe to church and feel good & confident that that $$$ goes to where it is supposed to go. Places like the Dallas Life Center, the Downtown Pregnancy Center, as well as direct help to fellow parishoners in a tight spot. I've also helped out at a few mission churches in some rough spots in Dallas, where my megre carpentry, electrical, & other skills are a blessing. You don't have to be particularly handy to be able to lend a hand.

Giving $$$ to panhandlers is injurious for all involved: giver, taker, & the rest of us.

Giving $$$ to a criminal under threat of violence is another thing altogether, though some panhandlers flirt with/cross the line into threats. In general, it is a bad idea, for all the reasons stated in posts above. The decision has to be made by the person in that situation and I will not gainsay any who decide not to give the BG what he deserves (hot lead) and instead forks over $$$.

Most people will respond to stimuli. If certain actions (threats of violence) result in a "good" outcome for the BG ($$$ in pocket), the BG will repeat until stopped by an equal or greater violence.

 

[Bear Gulch]

The object isn't the $80 bucks it is your freedom to walk the streets without having to endure antics like these. What are your dignity and self respect worth to you. I think these idiots if confronted would go to doing something else.