Who blew up the OK City building?

[HankB]

Lack of confidence in the veracity of the "official" explanations for OKC, Flight 800, Waco, etc., does not automatically translate into acceptance of a conspiracy you read about on the Internet.

And as for tinfoil hats . . . there are better things than tinfoil to keep the mind rays from hypnotizing you. See www.stopabductions.com

 

[Beren]

When discussing conspiracies, the first person to bring up aliens loses. I know that's a rule or something.

 

[cuchulainn]

The government is required to give a reason when it denies a FoIA request.

I'd be interested in knowing which of the reasons the feds gave. Those reasons are at 5 U.S.C. § 552 (b)(1)-(9) and (c)(1)-(3). [see below]

Now, do any of you Ross-ites know that answer?

Have you seen the FoIA request?

Have you seen the Gov't's denial letter?

Have you seen the appeal letter?

Have you seen the denial of the appeal?

Has Mr. Ross (or others) taken the matter to the courts or taken any other administrative steps available to them under a FOIA denial? Have you seen the paperwork for any of that?

Funny thing -- I did a google searches for

(a) "john ross" "freedom of information" "oklahoma city"
(b) "john ross" "foia" "oklahoma city"

I found none of the above -- that makes me wonder if the hoax here is the FOIA-denial story.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps that paper trail exists. If so, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Anyone have a link to it?

http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/foiastat.htm

(b) This section does not apply to matters that are--

(1)(A) specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and (B) are in fact properly classified pursuant to such Executive order;

(2) related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency;

(3) specifically exempted from disclosure by statute (other than section 552b of this title), provided that such statute (A) requires that the matters be withheld from the public in such a manner as to leave no discretion on the issue, or (B) establishes particular criteria for withholding or refers to particular types of matters to be withheld;

(4) trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential;

(5) inter-agency or intra-agency memorandums or letters which would not be available by law to a party other than an agency in litigation with the agency;

(6) personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;

(7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information (A) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, (C) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, (D) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source, including a State, local, or foreign agency or authority or any private institution which furnished information on a confidential basis, and, in the case of a record or information compiled by a criminal law enforcement authority in the course of a criminal investigation or by an agency conducting a lawful national security intelligence investigation, information furnished by a confidential source, (E) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law, or (F) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual;

(8) contained in or related to examination, operating, or condition reports prepared by, on behalf of, or for the use of an agency responsible for the regulation or supervision of financial institutions; or

(9) geological and geophysical information and data, including maps, concerning wells.

Any reasonably segregable portion of a record shall be provided to any person requesting such record after deletion of the portions which are exempt under this subsection. The amount of information deleted shall be indicated on the released portion of the record, unless including that indication would harm an interest protected by the exemption in this subsection under which the deletion is made. If technically feasible, the amount of the information deleted shall be indicated at the place in the record where such deletion is made.

(c)(1) Whenever a request is made which involves access to records described in subsection (b)(7)(A) and--

(A) the investigation or proceeding involves a possible violation of criminal law; and

(B) there is reason to believe that (i) the subject of the investigation or proceeding is not aware of its pendency, and (ii) disclosure of the existence of the records could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, the agency may, during only such time as that circumstance continues, treat the records as not subject to the requirements of this section.

(2) Whenever informant records maintained by a criminal law enforcement agency under an informant's name or personal identifier are requested by a third party according to the informant's name or personal identifier, the agency may treat the records as not subject to the requirements of this section unless the informant's status as an informant has been officially confirmed.

(3) Whenever a request is made which involves access to records maintained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation pertaining to foreign intelligence or counterintelligence, or international terrorism, and the existence of the records is classified information as provided in subsection (b)(1), the Bureau may, as long as the existence of the records remains classified information, treat the records as not subject to the requirements of this section.

 

[centac]

"Please provide extraordinary evidence that McVeigh blew up the Murrah Building, alone or not."

Uh, there was this public trial, see.....never mind, I'm sure they were in on it.

All this is based on the belief that evidence exists that "they" wont acknowledge or release.... so how does anyone know what the "evidence" is?

 

[logical]

How do we know it was even ever blown up. If they can fake the moon landings, anything's possible.

 

[Molon Labe]

Can anyone think of a conspiracy theory that has come true?

 

[Gung-Ho]

Can anyone think of a conspiracy theory that has come true?

Now if it were a REALLY good conspiracy theory, even if it came true, could you tell?

 

[richyoung]

ANFO couldn't do it...

Sam Gronning, a licensed, professional blaster in Casper, Wyoming with 30 years experience in explosives, told us the (General) Partin letter "states in very precise technical terms what everyone in this business knows: No truck bomb of ANFO [ammonium nitrate fuel oil] out in the open is going to cause the kind of damage we had there" in Oklahoma City. "In 30 years of blasting, using everything from 100 percent nitrogel to ANFO, I've not seen anything to support that story."

Gronning notes that he recently detonated an ANFO charge more than three times the size of the one reportedly responsible for the Oklahoma destruction. "I set off 16,000 pounds of ANFO and was standing upright just 1,000 feet away from the blast," and even a bomb that size would not have caused the destruction experienced in the April 19th explosion, he said.

Dr. Rodger Raubach, who took his PhD in physical chemistry and served on the research faculty at Stanford University, says, "General Partin's assessment is absolutely correct. I don't care if they pulled up a Semi-trailer truck with 20 tons of ammonium nitrate; it wouldn't do the damage we saw there."

Raubach, who is the technical director of a chemical company, explaned that "the detonation velocity of the shock wave from an ANFO explosion is on the order of 3,500 meters per second. In comparison, military explosives generally have detonation velocities that hit 7,000 to 8,000-plus meters per second. Things like TNT have a detonation velocity of about 7,100 meters per second. The most energetic single-component explosive of this type, C-4 or RDX, is about 8,000 meters per second and above. You don't start doing big-time damage to heavy structures until you get into those ranges, which is why the military uses those explosives."

These guys seem to have the qualifications to judge...

 

[taliv]

conspiracy theories "come true"

U.N. Oil for Food programme ??
Watergate ??
Tuskegee Syphilis experiements ??

i could probably think of plenty more given a bit of time and the slightest bit of interest

 

[Beethoven]

Lack of confidence in the veracity of the "official" explanations for OKC, Flight 800, Waco, etc., does not automatically translate into acceptance of a conspiracy you read about on the Internet.

Strangely, that fact seems to escape just about everyone posting in this thread.

 

[GRB]

I think the second post in this thread pretty much says what i think of this hypothesis by way of that picture. I would not spend a penny on tis guy's book. Too much of a conspiracy behind every rock sort of mentality in it for me from the sounds of it. I guess he will make some money with it though from those who like to imagine, in essence, that the government is an evil empire out to totally enslave the populace by whatever means. Just my opinion, and I respect yours but just don't buy it. That same government that you claim is capable of putting together such a well planned and long lasting conspiracy effort is the same one that apparently can do little if anything right according to some of you. It cannot even keep our borders secure on a daily basis, cannot balance the budget, cannot thwart crime, cannot stick to any agenda, cannot run the war in Iraq efficiently, is full of (according to some of you at least by numerous repeated implications) inept boobs in government jobs. I just don't think so but that is just my opinion after having worked for the same government for 26 years. We would need a few more brain surgeons in our midst to pull off something like that, a few thousand more.

 

[2nd Amendment]

hang on a sec...

Boy, glad I edited that...

 

[Fred Fuller]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts103.html

Uncovering a DOJ Coverup
by Paul Craig Roberts

In 1995 Kenneth Trentadue was murdered by federal agents in a federal prison in Oklahoma City. A coverup immediately went into effect. Federal authorities claimed Trentadue, who was being held in a suicide-proof cell, had committed suicide by hanging himself, but the state coroner would not buy the story.

Prison authorities tried to get family consent to cremate the body. But Trentadue had been picked up on a minor parole violation, and the story of suicide by a happily married man delighted with his two-month old son raised red flags to the family.

When the Trentadue family received Kenneth’s body and heavy makeup was scraped away, the evidence (available in photos on the Internet) clearly shows a person who had been tortured and beaten. His throat was slashed and he may have been garroted. There are bruises, burns and cuts from the soles of Trentadue’s feet to his head, wounds that obviously were not self-inflicted.

As the state coroner noted at the time, every investigative rule was broken by the federal prison. The coroner was not allowed into the cell, and the cell was scrubbed down prior to investigation.

The federal coverup was completely transparent. A US senator made inquiries, but the US Department of Justice (sic), knowing that it would not be held accountable, stuck to its fabricated story.

That was a mistake. Trentadue’s brother, Jesse, is an attorney. He believes that federal officials, like everyone else, must be held accountable for their crimes. He has been battling the Justice (sic) Department and the FBI for a decade.

Jesse Trentadue has amassed evidence that his brother was mistaken for Tim McVeigh’s alleged accomplice in the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. Federal agents, believing that they had Richard Lee Guthrie in their hands, went too far in attempting to force him to talk.

Jesse Trentadue learned that the FBI had informants planted with two groups on which McVeigh may have relied: a white supremacist paramilitary training compound at Elohim City and the Mid-West Bank Robbery Gang. The implication is that the FBI had advance notice of McVeigh’s plans and may have been conducting a sting operation that went awry.

The FBI has documents that name the informants. Teletypes from then FBI director Louis Freeh dated January 4, 1996, and August 23, 1996, confirm that the FBI had informants imbedded with the Mid-West Bank Robbery Gang and in Elohim City. In these documents, Freeh reports to various FBI field offices that the Elohim City informant (possibly explosives expert and German national Andreas Carl Strassmeir) "allegedly has had a lengthy relationship with Timothy McVeigh" and "that McVeigh had placed a telephone call to Elohim City on 4/5/95, a day that he was believed to have been attempting to recruit a second conspirator to assist in the OKBOMB attack."

The FBI denied to federal judge Dale Kimball that any such documents existed. But someone had leaked the teletypes to Trentadue, and he put them before the judge along with an affidavit of their genuineness. Caught red-handed lying to a federal judge, the FBI was ordered to produce all documents Trentadue demanded. Judge Kimball gave the FBI until June 15, 2005, to deliver the incriminating records. Needless to say, the FBI doesn’t want to deliver and is attempting every possible dodge to escape obeying the judge’s order.

In his effort to uncover the DOJ’s coverup of his brother’s murder, Jesse Trentadue may have uncovered evidence of the FBI’s failure to prevent the bombing of the Murrah Building. It is bad enough that the murder of Kenneth Trentadue is covered over with many layers of DOJ perjury and the withholding and destruction of evidence. Evidence that the FBI was aware of McVeigh’s plan to bomb the Murrah Building and failed to prevent the deed would be an additional heavy blow to the prestige of federal law enforcement.

May 27, 2005

Dr. Roberts is John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, former contributing editor for National Review, and a former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury. He is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

Copyright © 2005 Creators Syndicate
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, what did the FBI find?

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=15312

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Naaah, no conspiracies here. Move along folks, just move along, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

lpl/nc
(Carol Howe? Who is she anyway? http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/121097a/CarolHoweCrossExamination1.html )

 

[Gung-Ho]

I guess he will make some money with it though from those who like to imagine, in essence, that the government is an evil empire out to totally enslave the populace by whatever means.

Notice how he says that like its not true?

 

[GEM]

I think the government made up a story about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction so that we would invade Iraq.

I think we faked and/or provoled an attack in the Gulf of Tonkin to get us into the Vietnam War.

I also think that our government is giving Saddam Hussein french toast for breakfast and unlimited Cheetos.

Or I think that all the weapons of mass destruction were moved to Syria and we were so stupid we let them do that and now can't find them when we knew where they were in Iraq. I also think the WTC is still standing but are invisible.

My wife doesn't let me have French toast.

 

[Beethoven]

Notice how he says that like its not true?

He obviously believes that the world was created the day he was born.

He's also obviously never heard of, let alone studied this:


Main Entry: his·to·ry
Pronunciation: 'his-t(&-)rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Latin historia, from Greek, inquiry, history, from histOr, istOr knowing, learned; akin to Greek eidenai to know -- more at WIT

1 : TALE, STORY

2 a : a chronological record of significant events (as affecting a nation or institution) often including an explanation of their causes b : a treatise presenting systematically related natural phenomena c : an account of a patient's medical background d : an established record <a prisoner with a history of violence>

3 : a branch of knowledge that records and explains past events <medieval history>

4 a : events that form the subject matter of a history b : events of the past c : one that is finished or done for <the winning streak was history> <you're history> d : previous treatment, handling, or experience (as of a metal)

 

[GRB]

Thats cause I work for the governemnt - what would you expect from one of us guys who is part of the conspiracy (whoops did I write that outloud) - lol.

 

[GRB]

I am aware that if you tell a big lie long enough it can become the truth. So keep on spouting, maybe someday you guys will rewrite history to yur own satisfaction just often happens.

 

[Byron Quick]

Without tamping, shaping, or other techniques, a bomb blast will spend its energy in every direction instead of mostly the direction you want it to go.

From the pictures that I've seen of the location of the truck and comparing the damage of the federal building with buildings across the street which are apparently at least as close as the federal building...I would like for that to be explained.

Now, I'm not knowledgeabl in explosives...but to me the blast pattern means that the ANFO was placed in the truck in such a way to make a shaped charge. If so, this leads to another question: did either McVeigh or his convicted accomplice have the knowledge to make such a device? I assume that such knowledge would be fairly advanced. This assumption, if correct, leads to another possible question: If McVeigh wasn't capable of making the device...who was?

Now this is a house of cards probably. It could be that explosives damage things in unexpected directions when not tamped, shaped, or otherwise directed and I just never was told. It could be that if it was a giant shaped charge that any 10 year old could do it and once again...I missed the boat. It could be that McVeigh was a demolitions expert but I'd like to know the hows, whens, and wherefores.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinairy proof, huh? Think I'll go with beyond a reasonable doubt myself.

I've a few questions for the people who doubt the existence or possibility of existence of conspiracies: 1)Why did the government pass laws against conspiracies if they don't exist? 2)The people that the government has placed in prison after being convicted of conspiracy...do you maintain that the conspiracy laws are a government conspiracy to imprison innocent people? What about government epiphanies such as Watergate...do you maintain that these were not conspiracies?

I don't know what happened with Kennedy. Nor with Flight 800. Nor with the OKC bombing. But government explanations often have all the believability of 'the dog ate my homework.' Maybe the government just hires idiots to come up with the official explanations and all would be well if they upped the hiring requirements to include people who barely graduated high school with a D minus average.

 

[Crosshair]

 

[Baba Louie]

Pretty simple structural analysis of the building's construction and why so much of the building went down...
http://orbita.starmedia.com/~martzsolis/THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING.htm

Of course there are conspiracies... our founding fathers were a conspiracy against the King's men.

Was this a conspiring of ner-do-wells with gov't blessing? Nahhh. Did they (FBI/gov't) think they had some form of inside knowledge and ...oops... something evil this way came and we might have egg on our face unless we drive over the evidence with a bulldozer and remove the front door as fast as possible?

Whaddyacrazy? Ya really think they're gonna let themselves be suckered outta a fine gov't job by some... some... tax-paying schmuck of a citizen without some form of stonewalling or covering of derrieire.

Would you?

McVeigh and Nichols were chumps with a grudge and killed innocent persons for political gain. Terrorists, criminals, schmucks. Said building could have been demo'd when empty and sent the same message. Killing more innocent kids just doesn't cut it any way you look at it, whether it's Janet Reno's crew or some ex-soldiers with a Ryder Truck and a perfect (and I mean PERFECT) homemade fertilzer/deisel fuel, planting an IED in OKC.

All I can say is it's a good thing that only McVeigh and Nichols were P.O.'d enough by Waco to become homegrown terrorists. Martial Law would suck.

 

[2nd Amendment]

We're supposed to believe that the president and foreign leaders conspired to attack a sovereign nation by lying about the presence of weaponry.

We're supposed to believe the president had advance knowledge of 9/11.

We're supposed to believe Haliburton is in the Middle East because they are butt-buddies with the president.

We're supposed to believe a dozen other wacky things when the subject is a nominally conservative politican. But THEN we're supposed to believe we are all tin-hat-wearing nuts when talking about an event that transpired during the most corrupt "administration" in history, enabled by one of the most out of control federal agencies in history.

Muslims did it with the asistance of McVeigh. The truck was the delivery vehicle for the bombs found inside the building, not all of which went off. ATF among others knew it was coming, tried to stop it and missed. They did the best they could to "fix it" and Clinton made political hay out of the incident, perhaps without every knowing what really happened himself. Like I said, that's not even "conspiracy, that's just a bunch of thugs doing slightly above average CYA.

 

[jefnvk]

Please provide extraordinary evidence that McVeigh blew up the Murrah Building, alone or not

Ah, but you are the one that brought up the accusation. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your accusation, not me to prove you accusation is wrong.

 

[rick_reno]

Aliens blew up the building, they took the door that's been missing from the Waco incident too.

 

[Crosshair]

OK, In my post above I basicly said I wasn't going to post, but I can't resist. Here is a simple, 3 frame pic as to how I understand the building fell. (History channel did a special on it as well as my own research. Can't post any hard sources though, did it awhile ago.)



The Black line is the floors supported by the outdoor columns (Red) of the building. The Yellow box is the bomb. The building was made of reinforced concrete that we all know is very strong. Hoever there was minimal reinforcement ot the joint of the floor (Black) and the columns (Red). They where mainly held in place by gravity since the floors above held everything in place with minimal fastening to keep them there. The same thing happens in you're house. In mine, the vertical wood support columns running down the middle of the basement are held in place with nothing more than a few small bolts, just enough to keep a bump from knocking them out.

If I wanted to, I could take a sledgehammer and probably shear the bolts then knock the wood columns out, but only after I had taken the vertical load off of it. That is how it (most likely) happened in Oklahoma City. The bomb blast lifted the front of the building just enough to knock the support columns out of place. Anything holding the two together was not built to take this much force. A split second later after the blast, the upper floors came back down and the columns where out of place and unable to take the load, they collapsed. The result was that any part of the structure that relied on those columns (Or become overloaded due to their absence.) collapsed while the rest of the building remained standing. This also explains why surrounding buildings recieved relativly minor damage. Mostly limited to broken windows and damage from flying debris. It also explains why the building seemed to collapse into the blast and not away from it, since the collapse happened after the blast, not as a direct result of it.