Pumpkinheaver
Member
I carry hardball in my Kimber from time to time. Not really worried about over penetration as much as not enough penetration with some hp loads.
Who carries/uses FMJ or other solid rounds?
- Thread starter Cousin Mike
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Hokkmike
Member
I shoot FMJ all the time. Cheaper. But I have the HP's, 1 box, for the ready. That's what they are designed for, nez pa?
I sure don't think I would go deer hunting with FMJ's unless I was in to big time tracking! Or course I know that would be illegal and wouldn't do it, but I think you get my point.
I sure don't think I would go deer hunting with FMJ's unless I was in to big time tracking! Or course I know that would be illegal and wouldn't do it, but I think you get my point.
Cousin Mike
Member
What originally got me thinking about this whole thing was an incident I heard about earlier this year when it was still cold outside.Lots of local officers here in Columbus have/carry/use Sig P220's/P245's, as there's never a shortage of these models traded in at local gunstores. Apparently a local officer was forced to deploy his .45 caliber weapon and fire on a bad guy for whatever reason. Not surprising news around here. Apparently he stopped whatever crime was in progress with one shot, but the victim survived. Upon further inspection after being taken to the hospital in handcuffs, etc., not only was the guy alive, but he hadn't even really been shot. The JHP .45 round had completely stopped within the mans clothing before it even broke skin. Broke a couple of ribs, left one hell of a bruise and it obviously hurt like hell... bad enough for him to stop fighting because he thought he was shot. Which is good for the officer, but I don't know if I want to bet on having his same luck, God forbid I ever find myself in his situation.
Of course, this whole story could be a load, but considering my source, I doubt it. I have a few leather coats that are extremely heavy, so I could really see how such a thing could happen given the way people dress up here in the winter. You can definitely count on having to penetrate several layers of clothing if you find yourself in an outdoor encounter up here in the colder months.
If there's one thing that I truly disagree with, it's mcoopers point that "it's not about making sure your round penetrates enough." (not picking on you buddy, but this is JMHO) - I believe that penetration is essential. Vital organs are usually protected by bone, and at the very least a few inches of muscle, fat, skin, etc. Penetration is the difference between a superficial wound, which enables the BG to keep fighting if he's determined... and a hit to the central nervous system which will win the fight for you instantly. You can't hit the spinal cord, heart, lungs, liver or other vital organs if your cartridge gets stuck somewhere in the ribs, skin, or especially clothes. More penetration = more crushed tissue, which bleeds more. More blood loss = quicker incapacitation. As said previously on this board, .45ACP in FMJ has been working pretty well for the past 100 years or so. Excuse my sense of humor, but I have to wonder... how much talk of energy deposit, expansion, and "Magical XYZ Brand" Super-Death-ray bullets came into play back then?
When you count local stories like that, with the well-documented facts of the things JHP does sometime in the human body (like shedding the jacket and penetrating less than 3" into the target, fragmentation, failures to penetrate and/or expand), it's enough to make you think. Recent bullet technology is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure it will get better with time. But, I would prefer a more accurate testing medium be used than a cube of ballistic gelatin for testing something as important as pistol-caliber defense ammunition. I just don't know if I can trust that a hunk of mixed metals flying at 800-1400 fps will perform the same in a moving, live human body as it will in a big block of stationary Jell-O.
I like Working Man's idea of one magazine of each, or maybe even mixed magazines. I've heard that called "ghetto" and everything else, but maybe there's an advantage to this one. Double-tap, and if the first one didn't do the job, the second one will
Just thinking out loud, but I appreciate the input from every side. I'd also like to hear more about these semi wadcutter rounds.
Of course, this whole story could be a load, but considering my source, I doubt it. I have a few leather coats that are extremely heavy, so I could really see how such a thing could happen given the way people dress up here in the winter. You can definitely count on having to penetrate several layers of clothing if you find yourself in an outdoor encounter up here in the colder months.
If there's one thing that I truly disagree with, it's mcoopers point that "it's not about making sure your round penetrates enough." (not picking on you buddy, but this is JMHO) - I believe that penetration is essential. Vital organs are usually protected by bone, and at the very least a few inches of muscle, fat, skin, etc. Penetration is the difference between a superficial wound, which enables the BG to keep fighting if he's determined... and a hit to the central nervous system which will win the fight for you instantly. You can't hit the spinal cord, heart, lungs, liver or other vital organs if your cartridge gets stuck somewhere in the ribs, skin, or especially clothes. More penetration = more crushed tissue, which bleeds more. More blood loss = quicker incapacitation. As said previously on this board, .45ACP in FMJ has been working pretty well for the past 100 years or so. Excuse my sense of humor, but I have to wonder... how much talk of energy deposit, expansion, and "Magical XYZ Brand" Super-Death-ray bullets came into play back then?
When you count local stories like that, with the well-documented facts of the things JHP does sometime in the human body (like shedding the jacket and penetrating less than 3" into the target, fragmentation, failures to penetrate and/or expand), it's enough to make you think. Recent bullet technology is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure it will get better with time. But, I would prefer a more accurate testing medium be used than a cube of ballistic gelatin for testing something as important as pistol-caliber defense ammunition. I just don't know if I can trust that a hunk of mixed metals flying at 800-1400 fps will perform the same in a moving, live human body as it will in a big block of stationary Jell-O.
I like Working Man's idea of one magazine of each, or maybe even mixed magazines. I've heard that called "ghetto" and everything else, but maybe there's an advantage to this one. Double-tap, and if the first one didn't do the job, the second one will
Just thinking out loud, but I appreciate the input from every side. I'd also like to hear more about these semi wadcutter rounds.
CajunBass
Member
I'd say that guy has used up his supply of luck.
orionengnr
Member
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not claiming to be an expert, but...
What does your local Sheriff's Department use? Local PD, Highway Patrol? Any idea (or reports on) their success rate?
I don't know of anyone who uses FMJ unless they:
--are in the military (Hague Convention)
--are in NJ (stupid state laws)
As to a JHP failing to penetrate, I have seen no evidence that under any conditon, a JHP would do anything other than act like an FMJ (at worst). A clogged JHP will act like an FMJ; an unclogged JHP will expand. Given that both travel 830 fps or so, both have the same energy. What would be the difference in penetration between an unexpanded JHP and a FMJ (cost aside)?
What does your local Sheriff's Department use? Local PD, Highway Patrol? Any idea (or reports on) their success rate?
I don't know of anyone who uses FMJ unless they:
--are in the military (Hague Convention)
--are in NJ (stupid state laws)
As to a JHP failing to penetrate, I have seen no evidence that under any conditon, a JHP would do anything other than act like an FMJ (at worst). A clogged JHP will act like an FMJ; an unclogged JHP will expand. Given that both travel 830 fps or so, both have the same energy. What would be the difference in penetration between an unexpanded JHP and a FMJ (cost aside)?
Cousin Mike
Member
Neither had I (well, not anything more recent than the Miami shootout), until my local police story - which, I admit, could be nothing but local folklore. But it made me think nonetheless. Also, I've read posts recently in another forum by a mortician - who seemed to be of the opinion that FMJ was more effective in human targets, especially against bone. I found it hard to argue with his logic, given the nature of his work. My thinking, obviously, is that penetration trumps expansion - which is probably why I own two .45's - the old "9mm may expand but .45 doesn't shrink" argument.
What I do seem to hear a lot is the opinion that expansion may, in and of itself, inhibit penetration. As said before, I'd rather overpenetrate than not get far enough into the target. And the thought of an exit wound doesn't necessarily bother me either. 2 holes bleed more, which is never bad in my opinion. Hit a BG in the midsection, bullet embeds in the ribs or sternum, and stops short of a major organ? He might keep fighting.
Bullet plows through the chestplate, hits a lung, the heart, or the spinal cord on the way through the other side? I can't imagine that too many people are going to keep standing after recieving a wound like that.
Funny though, since starting this thread, I've made sure I have one magazine of Winchester FMJ/ Speer Lawman TMJ ready for each gun I own, as well as a magazine of Gold Dots for my .45Autos, and Winchester Rangers for my .357 Sig.
sm
member
Old Fuff in post #7 expresses my sentiments.
Not going to worry about it personally. As I have fired a minimum of 200 rds including all carry magazines for semi -autos with a variety of ammo to choose from that is reliable (feeds/extracts) and I know the POA/POI of said rounds and have shot windshields, thru vehicle doors (from exterior to interior and interior to exterior, and other situations one may encounter in real life.
Slugs, settled on slugs for shotguns for MY needs as well.
Now what others may need and choose? I guess that is up to their training, testing and environment.
Not going to worry about it personally. As I have fired a minimum of 200 rds including all carry magazines for semi -autos with a variety of ammo to choose from that is reliable (feeds/extracts) and I know the POA/POI of said rounds and have shot windshields, thru vehicle doors (from exterior to interior and interior to exterior, and other situations one may encounter in real life.
Slugs, settled on slugs for shotguns for MY needs as well.
Now what others may need and choose? I guess that is up to their training, testing and environment.
I started questioning the effectiveness of using an expanding HP for penetration before I read the "stories from the morgue". His stories only confirmed the theory I was forming in my own mind. The following is one of the theories I have devoloped of why a 230 gr. FMJ .45 ACP is a better defense round than a 230 gr. HP .45 ACP: A HP should be in the process of expanding before it reaches bone. Lets say a .45 HP has expanded to .55 before it reaches the ribs. This bullet's front surface is now essentially a flat soft piece of lead with a .55 diameter which may be easily deflected when it hits a bone. The more the bullet expands before it hits a bone, the larger the lead flat surface will be that strikes the bone. The bullets chances of deflecting may increase proportionately with the increase of the diameter of the flat soft lead surface. I think a bullet with a ROUND HARD STEEL surface like a FMJ has a better chance of crushing a bone and penetrating to a vital than a bullet with a larger surace area which is essentially a FLAT piece of SOFT LEAD. I do not pretend to be knowledgeable about physics. Also, please excuse my poor grammar.
I would also like to add that a FMJ has more sectional density, which is extremely important in determining penetration, right before it hits a bone than an expanding flat piece of lead which is continiously losing sectional density.
With a .45acp under 25 yards I think a good COM shot, a 230gr Ball round is going to do enough dammage, I use Corbon +p JHP, Hydro-Shock 230gr JHP and Ball, depending on whats going on, I keep 3 mags loaded, most likely the first round out of either of my .45's will be a Corbon +p, which will produce a good hole.
My 9mm stays loaded with Nato 124gr ball M882, I don't trust any JHP to be reliable in the Berreta 92FS
My 9mm stays loaded with Nato 124gr ball M882, I don't trust any JHP to be reliable in the Berreta 92FS
It's easy to discount the effectiveness of the ribcage, but it's not wise to do so. I prefer a big bullet that will penetrate to effective depths - .45 FMJ. A .45 doesn't need to expand, in my opinion, and doing so only hinders its ability to bore through clothing, muscle and bone.
1911_CQB
Member
nothing but 230 gr JHPs for me, (.45) 124+p (9mm) and 155 JHP (.40) 200 JHP (10)
Longue Carabine
Member
At work, I carry 165 gr BHA EXJHP in the pistol, one extra mag of EXJHP, and one extra mag of 180 gr BHA FMJ - just in case.
what's the worst that could happen???
The way that I see it, if my 230 grain 45 cal hollow point doesn't expand, then its still a 230 grain, 45 cal slug moving at the same speed (probably faster) as your hard ball.
I have a friend that alternates FMJ and HP's in the mag of his carry gun. I never understood this kind of logic. Anyone else know someone who does this?
The way that I see it, if my 230 grain 45 cal hollow point doesn't expand, then its still a 230 grain, 45 cal slug moving at the same speed (probably faster) as your hard ball.
I have a friend that alternates FMJ and HP's in the mag of his carry gun. I never understood this kind of logic. Anyone else know someone who does this?
the naked prophet
Member
From what I've read, a JHP bullet is more likely to break through bone than be deflected. Especially in the case of a rib. For one thing, a rib is nearly on the surface - there's almost no flesh to induce expansion before it hits. Look at all the gelatin tests - there is no expansion before 3-4 inches in most cases.
What I've read suggests that the JHP bullet "bites" into the bone, and breaks through (or for smaller calibers, stops) whereas a rounded FMJ will glance off. I've read (mostly here on THR) about 9mm and .45 FMJ bouncing of skulls when they didn't hit at at a perfect 90 degree angle. After it's expanded, yes, it's larger. However, the operative issue here is that it's slower after it expands, because it's had more drag as it passes through the flesh on the way to the bone. If I swing a 1 lb hammer at a bone, it's gonna have nearly the same effect whether the face is 0.55 inches wide or 0.45 inches wide. Until the tip is pointy enough that you start to get cutting effects, the width isn't going to make much of a difference.
The question is, do you have a JHP which penetrates deep enough (as an indication of retained energy in the stopping medium) to break a bone after it passes through some flesh? If it's moving too slow when it hits a bone...
I can definitely see the argument for .45 FMJ. In a 9mm, no, there is too much to be lost in terms of effectiveness. My opinion only.
What I've read suggests that the JHP bullet "bites" into the bone, and breaks through (or for smaller calibers, stops) whereas a rounded FMJ will glance off. I've read (mostly here on THR) about 9mm and .45 FMJ bouncing of skulls when they didn't hit at at a perfect 90 degree angle. After it's expanded, yes, it's larger. However, the operative issue here is that it's slower after it expands, because it's had more drag as it passes through the flesh on the way to the bone. If I swing a 1 lb hammer at a bone, it's gonna have nearly the same effect whether the face is 0.55 inches wide or 0.45 inches wide. Until the tip is pointy enough that you start to get cutting effects, the width isn't going to make much of a difference.
The question is, do you have a JHP which penetrates deep enough (as an indication of retained energy in the stopping medium) to break a bone after it passes through some flesh? If it's moving too slow when it hits a bone...
I can definitely see the argument for .45 FMJ. In a 9mm, no, there is too much to be lost in terms of effectiveness. My opinion only.
another point...
unless you reload,FMJ ammo tends to be of the cheap crap varity, while most HP's such a hydra shocks, rangers, XTP's, etc, are loaded with premium componets. I know that Federal uses a powder that reduces muzzle flash. And speaking of powder, the HP's usualy are more consistant with charge weights, thus resulting in more accurate sceond, third, etc shots. These HP's usualy have plated or coated cases to help feeding. They are also usualy well water-proofed. For thoes who dont reload, this is also something to consider. Almost every ammo company produces premium ammo loaded with a HP. How many companies load premium FMJ?
unless you reload,FMJ ammo tends to be of the cheap crap varity, while most HP's such a hydra shocks, rangers, XTP's, etc, are loaded with premium componets. I know that Federal uses a powder that reduces muzzle flash. And speaking of powder, the HP's usualy are more consistant with charge weights, thus resulting in more accurate sceond, third, etc shots. These HP's usualy have plated or coated cases to help feeding. They are also usualy well water-proofed. For thoes who dont reload, this is also something to consider. Almost every ammo company produces premium ammo loaded with a HP. How many companies load premium FMJ?
C-grunt
Member
Freddymac...My best friend also alternates HP and FMJ in his carry gun.The logic is that if the HP doesnt penetrate the cover that a BG might take the FMJ has a better chance. This came about after he was fired on by a guy in a car. He didnt return fire because they were to far away by the time he drew his weapon, but it made him think about his HP ability to penetrate auto body/glass.
Cousin Mike
Member
I can definitely understand the way of thinking here. However, even with a 9mm, if you need to penetrate a barrier of some sort in order to hit your target (car door, furniture, etc.), I would imagine FMJ rounds could be more effective.
This is something that has been brought up a couple of times - frankly, the price of HD/SD ammo is no object. My only concern is that my rounds do the job I ask of them when the SHTF. Kill the bad guy, weather he's in a car, behind glass, hiding behind a door, a chair, a table, or wearing several layers of heavy winter clothing.
JHP's are great, and there's no question of their devastating effects on the human body when they perform as design intended... but every weapon/ammunition design has an Achilles' heel. Despite the fact that they have sometimes done less than intended damage, I've never heard of FMJ getting clogged with clothing and failing to penetrate a human target, or shedding it's jacket and failing to penetrate further than 3" into a target. I'm sure FMJ plows through more skulls and ribs than it bounces off of.
I've read a lot of that myself. I've never read it about 9mm or .45 though, it always seems to be some mousegun round involved in those stories. I personally know someone who was shot several times in the face, with hardball ammo, and survived. He was shot with a .25 - not even worth bringing up here if you ask me. I'd be willing to bet that those stories, although horrifying, probably are not even worth considering in terms of percentages if we stick to the major defensive calibers (.355+). Maybe, for arguments sake, say that happens 1 in 1000 times, which is probably a very liberal estimate. Every JHP review I've ever read had between 10-30% failures to expand, which seems to be the only reason to consider JHP ammunition. 1 in 10 is a much higher failure rate.
I have JHP rounds in my home for self defense. What I am now doing is making sure I have a magazine or two of hardball ready to go for each pistol as well. I got a .357 and 9mm because of a similar logic. The .45 is a great round, and does well against the unprotected human body - but it doesn't penetrate barriers as well as a 9mm or .357 does. I love the .45, but it's not the right tool for every job. Neither is the JHP round, IMHO.
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