Who does good Revolver conversions from .38 Special to 9mm P-'08?

[Oyeboten]

Hi Zsnark,


You'd asked -

Some years back, USAF did some experimentation using 9mm in their existing stack of S&W M&P 10s. I forget how they managed the ejection but believe they'd worked up a successful solution. Reason for this effort, I believe, was the stocks of .38s while they were converting to M9s. The review I read of this conversion produced groups of 10 inches as opposed to 3 inches with regular .38spl. Correct me if my fading memory is inaccurate. Bore size of the M&P is .357 or maybe .358. 9mm and all it's auto cousins is .354.

While, I believe this is an interesting technical discussion. Why is this conversion to 9mm, .38ACP, .38Super, 9mmX21, or 9mmX23, or whatever a desirable conversion. Puzzled Al.

Happy Holidays to all.

AAW

My original idea was in wishing to have a Revolver which could have been made, and, in my opinion, should have been made, as soon as the Moon CXlip was shown to be practical for rimless or Semi-rimmed Cartridges in a Revolver.

Thus, by say 1919 or so, where, Colr ot S & W or both, ought to have offered mid frame Revolvers chambering what at the time, were the World Famous and very well thought of .38 ACP Cartridge, and, certainyl, the 9mm P-'o8 Cartridge as well.


Being a homne grown American Boy, my own sense of the Romance with all this is for the .38 ACP Cartridge, in a Revolver as close in time to when it would have been done, if it had been done, at the time.


The discussion has wandered around that idea - ie: converting ( initially, a Colt 'Army Special', then, electing instead, to consider ) a late 1930s or very early 1940s Colt 'Official Police' Revolver to accept .38 ACP with full Moon Clips.


That is the topic.

 

[Oyeboten]

The question of Accuracy obtained in shooting usual anymore of 'Full Copper Patch' ( Full Metal Jacket ) .38 ACP Cartridges presumes a naive complaiscency or indifference to Bore diameter on the part of the Shooter.

I intend to shoot only Lead Bullets, and, to avoid any Jacketed or Hardball in my re-Loading for it. And or also, to elect .357 Bullets, of Lead, to re-load into once fired Cases which I have a zillion of already, and or to re-size Cases to accept .357 Lead Bullets, and, to have the Cylinder Bores made to accept the .38 ACP Cartridge without undue tighness, so this would be possible.

An appropriate hardness/softness for the Bullet, should allow it to behave no differently than if it were a .38 special to begin with.

When I was re-Loading for my .38 Automatic Colt Pistol, I always used .357 148 Grain Semi Wad Cutters anyway, and, they were happy to chamber perfectly and to squeeze down and to be very accurate when fired in the tighter bore, and, I recall no troubles from the Cartridge Cases in obliging them.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Fuff - your knowledge of old revolvers is rather impressive.

I don't know that it's impressive, but one time what I knew landed me an... well... interesting job in the firearms industry, and I was able to earn while researching what I loved. Also got to meet a lot of famous people while I was at it, and they generously shared what they knew - which was considerable. It was to say the least a "friendly business" and I just go lucky.

 

[DPris]

Oye,
Where are you really from?
Kinda hard to follow your linguistic style at times.

As far as Colt "shoulda" offered revolvers and clips in .38 Auto goes, there was no real interest or market for such a revolver.
Speedloading, along with copious amounts of shooting, and most of the rest of "modern" combat or defensive handgunnery techniques & thought, didn't come along until many years later. Half moons were strictly a wartime expediency to get more sidearms into the field and in the same caliber as the Colt .45 ACP pistols to simplify logistics, supply & inventory. The clips were not regarded as an improvement for the Model 1917 revolvers, or any others, until relatively recent times.

The .38 ACP also wasn't much of a ballistic improvement over existing revolver calibers & cartridges.
The .38 Super changed that, but with higher pressures, as others have already noticed.
Denis

 

[Zsnark]

Confusion by a newbie!

Hi Gunners,

Who am I responding to? Or, am I not in this confusing loop of questions and answers at all.

I like my Python, but if called to action, being on the verge of 70 years; an unlikely occurrence, I'd strap on my CZ-85. It would be loaded with the hottest, most effective stuff available. But I would have a shoulder mounted piece which was capable of throwing lots of metal. I don't have the option of full "rock n roll" since I live in the Republic of Kaliforniastan. So, I'd do the best I could.

Incidentally, these are not the "Golden Years"; old age sucks!

Happy New Year, Shootists!

AAW

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't think that Oyeboten expects to be "called to action," and undoubtedly the Old Fuff would be the last to go...

What's under discussion is a "what if" that in Oyeboten's mind has evolved into a fun project. Practical? Maybe, or maybe not. But in any case he's not looking at it in the context of being a current-day weapon. On any number of occasions the Old Fuff has found himself in a doing much the same.

If one wants to be practical, go buy a Glock... or a SIG... or a Beretta (whatever), but frankly I don't find them to be any fun...

 

[CraigC]

Then the real question is, can a .38Spl cylinder be rechambered to .38Super. I don't think it can but I could be wrong.

Can a .22LR cylinder be procured, rechambered and fitted to the desired platform and will it be strong enough. This I do not know, nor do I see anyone here with this information. So until a proper gunsmith is queried, there really ain't much point in discussing it further.

Does Grant Cunningham do caliber conversions?

The other question is, how much do you want to spend on this project? I would expect this to cost at least several hundred dollars and take at least six months.

I suggest contacting Jim Stroh and/or Hamilton Bowen. Clements has built a five-shot .44Spl King Cobra but currently only does conversions on Rugers and S&W's.

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a friend run an experiment.
Load S&W 686 moon clips, attempt to insert in Python.
No go.
True, these were .357 clips and rounds, but that tells me the bolt circle for Colt and Smith chambers are significantly different. That means that a .38 Auto conversion on an Army Special (or any other ".41 frame" Colt) will require custom clips. That will not be done for the price of a dinner date.

 

[Oyeboten]

Found out something interesting -


Apparently, in the early 1930s, the F. B. I. went to using Colt 'Police Positive' Revolvers, chambering the ".38-44" Heavy Duty ( proto .357 Magnum ) Cartridges, and, this was their official endorsement for their Agents.


No mentions are to be found of any regrets...but, I am still searching...

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jim Watson,


Indeed, I have not expected any of the S & W Cylinders to be the same schedule as those of the Colt ".41 Frame" series, even if I have kept an open mind on secretly hoping the L Frame S & W might be, or might be maybe close, but, dunno yet.


Surely there is someone, somewhere, who converts Pythons?


I am amazed that no one yet knows of anyone who does.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but how many real gunsmiths have you talked to?

All I can reasonably do is look on www sites and see what is regularly cataloged. If you want something special you are going to have to dig for it. And cutting up Colts is very special. A friend and I campaigned Pythons in IDPA and were thought eccentric for it, there are apparently very few people really shooting them any more, they seem limited to oohs and ahs on the internet.

 

[Old Fuff]

As I've previously pointed out, this proposed conversion won't fly without some sort of clips. Why doesn't someone make them? Put bluntly, it's because the Colt company dropped out of the hand ejector revolver market years ago. The Official Police / Army Special that is apparently the prefered platform here became history in 1969.

In addition the principal interest in moon-clip revolvers using any cartridge is based in competitors that use revolvers in combat games. The only Colt revolver that might tweek their interest is the now discontinued Python, and gunsmiths that specialize in making conversions seem to have zero interest in Colt's because they're potential customers have the same attitude.

I personally like these older Colt's because the ones in good condition (or can be returned to good condition) are fine, highly accurate, shooters. But they don't have much to offer when it comes to cartridge/caliber conversions.